Personal attacks don't get you anywhere. I had thought better of you. But given past behavior I'm not at all surprised.
I am only a conservative in one area, when it comes to bullshit beliefs that I see in most new age and alternative medicine approaches. I don't follow folklore because its been proven wrong so many times when it comes to medicine and related fields. You may think its nice and great to have something like a witchdoctor wave beads and rattles over you while muttering nonsense disguised as a secret language as a cure. I look at the human cost of it. I have had to deal with the family survivors of people who were absolutely convinced of the effectiveness of laetril or Orgone rays, etc. Ginko falls into the same area. Its a POS approach that's is pure magical thinking - there is little or no attachment to reality. What do you tell the family that granny deteriorated faster than expected - buy hey I know its too bad, but its OK she was on Ginko Balboa. The shaman said it was supposed to work. Since it didn't it must be her fault. I've heard similar crap excuses from the alt med people. On the whole there is a substantial lack of ethics among them. More are concerned with separating money from their clients than actually trying to help them. Do your great studies report on dropout rates - How do we really know what the actual effect of the drug is when most of the subjects dropped out for one reason or another? So there was an effect on the remaining members of the treatment group - was it due to the ginko, or some other characteristic common to the study survivors. You cannot tell one way or another. Are you willing to bet someones life, or as importantly someone whole essence on those results? If so that's more cruel to the person and their family than almost anything I can think of - the promise of a false cure. larry On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You have apparently never disagreed with him. Or read any of the threads > where he is talking to Sam. It isn't really worth my time to argue with him, > but he reminds me of the worst of Canadian bureaucracy... unthinking > conventional wisdom, and if you disagree you're a Luddite. That's annoying. > What really pisses me off though is that when you go look at his links half > the time they don't say what he says they do. > > anyway. A Cisco online test awaits. Take a puff for me, eh? I'd enjoy one > about now. > > Dana > > > On 12/4/05, Rastafari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > wow. > > > > one thing, larry is far from pompous... he is a gentle soul > > from what i could tell. we are all VERY over smart people > > thats why we do what we do and how we do it... > > > > some of us just do not know to iterate everything we have to > > say, in the best method. like a pizza delivery going to the > > wrong house. Great pizza, bad delivery. > > > > tw > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I don't *think* I am demented :) But a) no it is not the issue and b) I > > can > > > see that the thread would be confusing. So here is a brief synopis. > > > > > > 1. Jill asks what people are having for supper > > > 2. My answer - various health drinks; ginko balboa is mentioned > > > 3. Sam says I heard that didn't work > > > 4. In the throes of much caffeine I get sarcastic and say work for WHAT > > is > > > the question. > > > 5. Sam mentions memory, a previous lengthy thread here > > > 6. I tell him that's not why I had them add it to my smoothie and > > mention > > > the anticoagulant properties > > > 7. relatively amiable discussion, I summarize by saying right, some > > people > > > think it helps with dementia, there isn't much in the way of studies on > > > memory outside of that, but this si irrelevant, yada yada yada. I posted > > all > > > these studies in a discussion with Jim Davis months ago. > > > 8. Larry having apparentlly read none of the above jumps in to say that > > > science has proven that ginko balboa has no effect at all and once again > > > posts a link that does not seem to support what he is saying. > > > 9. I post link to study showing that ginko balboa potentiates coumadin, > > > wondering wtf, does Larry really think I would not have researched an > > > illness I had -- maybe I should tell him there's no evidence his insulin > > > pump works and he is a poor deluded soul clinging to hope when all is > > > hopeless :) > > > > > > 10. In a nutshell - It's a stupid argument. Larry is a pompous asshole > > who > > > should not give a shit WHAT supplement I have them add to my smoothie. > > But > > > he has it in his head that he is Mr Science and so obviously right that > > any > > > study out there must naturally support his suprficial suppositions. > > > > > > back to work > > > Dana > > > On 12/4/05, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > i get that... but dementia... was that the issue? > > > > or some blood/circulation disorder. im demented too, its > > > > ok if you are :) > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > coumadin is an anti-coagulant. So is ginko balboa. > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > i guess i have no idea what this is all about. > > > > > > and what is coumadin for? > > > > > > > > > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > ok I went and looked anyway. It does say that there is a benefit > > if > > > > the > > > > > > > doses are pooled. Not quite sure what that means, but it does > > tend > > > > to > > > > > > > indicate that the issue is a little more complex than you > > portray it > > > > to > > > > > > be. > > > > > > > Again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tsk as usually you are poo pooing without reading. You'd be > > funny > > > > if > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > weren't so condescending. The attitude of real science indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, I am talking about anticoagulation, as Sam has already > > > > > > realized. > > > > > > > > Remember that the next time you call him a Neanderthal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for your study, don't have time. It may say this but given > > your > > > > > > track > > > > > > > > record I am willing to bet it says more than that too. In any > > > > event > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are other studies, peer-reviewed, my friend. See the archives; > > > > posted > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > this summer. Ther aren't a lot -- there are problems with > > > > establishing > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > standard does as I have already mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that this Cocheran based meta analysis summarizes > > the > > > > > > attitude > > > > > > > > > of real science, there is no real effect for ginko beyond a > > > > placebo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.antiwrap.com/?789 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ginkgo biloba Compared with Cholinesterase Inhibitors in the > > > > > > Treatment > > > > > > > > > of Dementia: A Review Based on Meta-Analyses by the Cochrane > > > > > > > > > Collaboration > > > > > > > > > A. Kurza, B. Van Baelenb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aDepartment of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Technical > > > > University > > > > > > > > > Munich, Munich, Germany; > > > > > > > > > bMedisearch International, Mechelen, Belgium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dementia and Geriatric Cognitive Disorders 2004;18:217-226 > > (DOI: > > > > > > > > > 10.1159/000079388) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data were derived from the Cochrane Collaboration > > meta-analyses > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > efficacies of ginkgo, donepezil, rivastigmine and > > galantamine on > > > > > > > > > changes in cognitive function in patients with dementia and, > > > > where > > > > > > > > > necessary, were transformed to standardized mean > > differences. > > > > The > > > > > > > > > proportion of patients discontinuing trials was used as a > > proxy > > > > > > > > > measure of tolerability. Outcomes were assessed after 6 > > months > > > > of > > > > > > > > > treatment. Trial data for cholinesterase inhibitors were > > more > > > > > > > > > consistent than those for ginkgo, particularly regarding > > patient > > > > > > > > > populations and outcome measures. Significant benefits on > > > > cognition > > > > > > > > > vs. placebo were seen with donepezil, 5 and 10 mg, > > rivastigmine, > > > > > > 6-12 > > > > > > > > > mg, and galantamine, 16 and 24 mg. Significant benefit vs. > > > > placebo > > > > > > > > > with ginkgo was seen only when all doses were pooled. > > Similar > > > > > > > > > proportions of patients discontinued treatment with ginkgo > > and > > > > > > > > > placebo. Cholinesterase inhibitors were also well tolerated, > > > > > > although > > > > > > > > > a significantly greater proportion of patients receiving > > active > > > > > > > > > treatment discontinued vs. placebo with some doses. An > > > > > > evidence-based > > > > > > > > > medicine approach, taking into account the quality of > > clinical > > > > > > trials, > > > > > > > > > is essential when assessing the safety and efficacy of > > > > medications. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:185711 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
