yes, I agree with you there; tried it after I said that. Coumadin + ginko does better.
But the point I was trying to make is simply this. It has *some* effect if it has a verifiable and known interaction with coumadin. I also, like you, doubt that the effect is to instantly improve memory; I suspect that the effect noted in dementia patients is that it helps prevent further TIAs due to its anticoagulant effect. If this is correct the people who are generalizing from memory improvement in old people to memory improvement in young ones are in fact wrong, just not for the reasons you gave. I am not sure why there would have been no change in effect due to dose but don't have time to examine what exactly was tested. Perhaps the dose was too low? I can tell you that I have been to the ER twice over too much ginko balboa, once with coumadin and once without. Neither turned out to be anything serious, mind. The latter was a migraine I did not recognize not having had one before, and the on the first I had a very high INR with a normal head CAT. There is definitely an effect on the INR, even if the evidence is currently anecdotal and in case histories. There has also been a journal write-up of cerebral hemorrhages after too much ginko balboa. There are real issues of dose standardization. I had to stop consuming the stuff when I was taking coumadin because even drinking the same amount of the same brand of drink produced big variations and too high an INR can cause an aneurysm. Too low leaves you at risk of a second clotting event, PE in my case, sometimes heart attack or stroke in other people. But it's a known issue and is in the materials you get with coumadin and low-dose heparin, not to mention that it's well known in the support groups. ::shrug:: Bottom line, I get that supplement rather than the fat burner in my smoothie because I can and sometimes because I've had a lot of salad and want to reduce my risk. Yes, it does work, just perhaps not for what you assumed I meant. k? I am explaining this to you very politely because Tony is a nice guy and I think he would want me to. Have a nice night. Dana On 12/4/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yes ther eis no titration of dose. Therefore if there is an effect > that is irrespective of the magnitude of the dosage, I start > suspecting a placebo or Hawthorne effect. A plain google search turns > up far too much uncontrolled garbage. > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ok I went and looked anyway. It does say that there is a benefit if the > > doses are pooled. Not quite sure what that means, but it does tend to > > indicate that the issue is a little more complex than you portray it to > be. > > Again. > > > > Dana > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > tsk as usually you are poo pooing without reading. You'd be funny if > you > > > weren't so condescending. The attitude of real science indeed. > > > > > > Hello, I am talking about anticoagulation, as Sam has already > realized. > > > Remember that the next time you call him a Neanderthal. > > > > > > As for your study, don't have time. It may say this but given your > track > > > record I am willing to bet it says more than that too. In any event > there > > > are other studies, peer-reviewed, my friend. See the archives; posted > them > > > this summer. Ther aren't a lot -- there are problems with establishing > a > > > standard does as I have already mentioned. > > > > > > Dana > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/4/05, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I think that this Cocheran based meta analysis summarizes the > attitude > > > > of real science, there is no real effect for ginko beyond a placebo. > > > > > > > > http://www.antiwrap.com/?789 > > > > > > > > Ginkgo biloba Compared with Cholinesterase Inhibitors in the > Treatment > > > > of Dementia: A Review Based on Meta-Analyses by the Cochrane > > > > Collaboration > > > > A. Kurza, B. Van Baelenb > > > > > > > > aDepartment of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Technical University > > > > Munich, Munich, Germany; > > > > bMedisearch International, Mechelen, Belgium > > > > > > > > Dementia and Geriatric Cognitive Disorders 2004;18:217-226 (DOI: > > > > 10.1159/000079388) > > > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > > > Data were derived from the Cochrane Collaboration meta-analyses of > the > > > > efficacies of ginkgo, donepezil, rivastigmine and galantamine on > > > > changes in cognitive function in patients with dementia and, where > > > > necessary, were transformed to standardized mean differences. The > > > > proportion of patients discontinuing trials was used as a proxy > > > > measure of tolerability. Outcomes were assessed after 6 months of > > > > treatment. Trial data for cholinesterase inhibitors were more > > > > consistent than those for ginkgo, particularly regarding patient > > > > populations and outcome measures. Significant benefits on cognition > > > > vs. placebo were seen with donepezil, 5 and 10 mg, rivastigmine, > 6-12 > > > > mg, and galantamine, 16 and 24 mg. Significant benefit vs. placebo > > > > with ginkgo was seen only when all doses were pooled. Similar > > > > proportions of patients discontinued treatment with ginkgo and > > > > placebo. Cholinesterase inhibitors were also well tolerated, > although > > > > a significantly greater proportion of patients receiving active > > > > treatment discontinued vs. placebo with some doses. An > evidence-based > > > > medicine approach, taking into account the quality of clinical > trials, > > > > is essential when assessing the safety and efficacy of medications. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Purchase Flash MX Pro from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=57 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:185715 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
