This is what we have a supreme court for. But clearly if a teacher is preaching religion to me in my high school english class my religious rights have been stepped on.
--Beth, Pseudo usenet cop Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) Anchorage, Alaska ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 7:28 PM Subject: RE: Religious Freedom > Can't you say, the student's rights end where the teacher's rights begin? > > H. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 8:06 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Religious or otherwise. > > The teachers rights end where the students rights being. When my religious > behaviors begin to infringe upon your rights, thats where I am outside of > the law. > > If your religion says you need to perform human sacrifices, is this ok? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:27 PM > Subject: RE: Religious Freedom > > > > Hate speech and religious freedom are two different issues, and since I'm > > trying to stay tightly focused on religious freedom, I'm not going to > pursue > > the hate speech issue. > > > > Your response still doesn't answer my basic question. > > > > H. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:51 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > Well, there is also the fact that Mrs Smith is an agency of the school > > district when teaching. As an employee of the tribes of alaska if I went > > around while on the clock saying racist slurs against natives, I would > hope > > they would fire me. Its my job to not be prejudice while at work, even if > > at home I feel prejudice. Mrs smith has the obligation to her employer to > > not be any religion while teaching. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 3:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > I'm Jewish. I pay taxes. Someone else is Christian. They pay taxes. > > > Money does not care what religion it comes from. It's money. I don't > > > want my money going to a Christian thing that'll try and go "to the Jews > > > first". A Christian does not want their money going to converting their > > > followers to another religion. So we now need a common ground. That > > > common ground is respect for each other and the leaving out of religion > > > from the interaction. > > > My right not to hear in someone in any place paid for by group taxes > > > DOES trump that of someone who wants to use such a place to infringe on > > > me. > > > If Mrs. Smith has to evangelize at every opportunity then she can do so > > > at his home, at a place that is public and not paid for by taxes or a > > > place set aside for that. Let me put this in perspective. A subway > > > walkway is a public place. A missionary has every right to proselytize > > > there as long as he does not interfere with the movement of people. I > > > have the right to debate and cause that missionary to have a mental > > > collapse just as much as he has the right to spew his ideas at me. > > > The question is space. I can walk away and he can run. In a class no one > > > can walk away. In a school your 'trapped'. And if she feels trapped by > > > the fires of hell then she can just quit. A student can't. > > > Yes, I happen to hate missionaries. Yes I debate Jews for jesus and > > > cause them to publicly cry. If they come to tell me that thousands of > > > years of tradition and belief is wrong then I'm ok with telling them > > > that their lives are worthless and that they need to stop. > > > That's the problem. Give a person a podium and you draw counter > > > speakers. Don't limit their speech in some way and all speech is > > > allowed. If someone starts saying how we're all going to hell and > > > America has to be destroyed, is that protected? If so, can someone else > > > do a counter speech. And on and on and on till the hate flows, the > > > fights start and the wars are on. There has to be limits and controls. > > > Otherwise, Microsoft wins. :) > > > > > > > > > > Michael: > > > > > > > > This still doesn't answer my basic question. > > > > > > > > You're religion says "don't force it on others," but what if Mrs. > > > Smith > > > > follows a religion that says, "you must evangelize at every > > > opportunity"? > > > > > > > > The constitution guarantees a right to free exercise of religion. If > > > Mrs. > > > > Smith's belief in God commands her to be a public school teacher and > > > > evangelize from behind the podium, what is there within the > > > Constitution > > > > that says she can't? She feels just as captive as the students. She > > > feels > > > > the fiery pits of hell await if she doesn't do it. > > > > > > > > Does your right not to hear it trump her right to say it? > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:01 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven't been following much of this thread but I have to say one > > > > thing. Your right to exercise your religion is based on it not > > > > infringing on the rights of others. A teacher is paid to teach. > > > Period, > > > > end of story. If I had to put up with a missionary in public school > > > I'd > > > > have walked out. Of course, a student can't do that. It's a captive > > > > audience. > > > > Your religion is your own. Don't force it on others. At least that's > > > > what my religion says. > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying what I believe. I'm asking the question: Why isn't > > > this > > > > an > > > > > infringement of the teacher's rights to exercise his or her religion > > > > freely. > > > > > By preventing the teacher from that exercise you are asking the > > > > teacher to > > > > > disobey God (per the scenario I drafted). Should the government be > > > > able to > > > > > force a person to disobey God? If so, what is the constitutional > > > > argument > > > > > for such as case when the First Amendment says clearly that we have > > > a > > > > right > > > > > to freely follow our religious beliefs as we see fit? > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 1:01 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, as a teacher I should be able to teach the children whatever > > > > religion I > > > > > choose in the classroom? > > > > > > > > > > Its the teachers job to present the cirriculum, not to preach > > > > religion. The > > > > > teacher is wrong in two ways: > > > > > 1) not performing duties in their job description (presenting > > > > cirriculum) > > > > > and > > > > > 2) infringing on the religious rights of the students > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really believe a teacher should be allowed to attempt to > > > > convert > > > > > students to their religion as part of teaching practices? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 10:38 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which would be a violation of the teacher's First Amendment rights > > > > to > > > > > > exercise religious freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 9:05 PM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:59 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What if, as a public school teacher, you felt called (an > > > > vocation), as > > > > > in > > > > > > > commanded by God, to be both a public school teacher and > > > > evangelist. > > > > > That > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you were not a public school teacher, and that if you did not > > > read > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Bible during class, you would be going against God's will? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you should be fired. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:40 PM > > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Religious Freedom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So, if you are a teacher, or a mayor or other government > > > > official, are > > > > > > you > > > > > > > >not sinning if you do not use every opportunity to spread the > > > > Gospel. > > > > > As > > > > > > a > > > > > > > >teacher, aren't you commanded by God to spread the Gospel to > > > your > > > > > pupils? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as a teacher, you are paid to teach what the school system > > > has > > > > > > provided > > > > > > > for you to teach, if you don't like it, go teach at a church > > > > school. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This, of course, is an extreme position that is terribly > > > > politically > > > > > > > >incorrect, but I'm sort of playing the devil's advocate here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Isn't it a violation of your "free exercise" rights if you are > > > > > prohibited > > > > > > > >from preaching, praying and proselytizing no matter what your > > > > position > > > > > in > > > > > > > >the government? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, as your position is voluntary, usually by both parties, you > > > > are > > > > > > allowed > > > > > > > to leave, or be fired if you are not doing your job, and if your > > > > job > > > > > says > > > > > > > don't teach religion in your class, then you can't. If you have > > > a > > > > > problem > > > > > > > with this, find another job. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Another question: If the government makes a law that says, > > > "Thou > > > > shalt > > > > > > not > > > > > > > >pray in public," isn't the government showing a preference for > > > > > > irreligion, > > > > > > > >if not secular humanism. Even a secularist is taking a > > > religious > > > > > position > > > > > > > >based on faith (it takes as much faith not to believe as to > > > > believe). > > > > > So, > > > > > > > >when the government says, "no prayer," it's really > > > "establishing > > > > > > religion" > > > > > > > >by establishing irreligion as the religion of choice for the > > > > > government. > > > > > > > >True or not? > > > > > > > I would agree with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
