Part of your problem is that you choose to look at only the positive parts of the things you agree with and only the negative things of the ones you disagree with.
And you still don't get the fact that I am not saying to go out and fucking declaw every cat out there. I will say it again since you don't get it ... THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO DO IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW HARD YOU TRY AND CONVINCE THEM OTHERWISE SO CASES LIKE THAT IT IS BETTER TO DO IT AT THE RIGHT TIME. Jim hit on good points I didnt even go into before and that is we are already making pets fit into our lifestyles instead of their natural one. And if you had bothered to absurd what I was saying you'd see that I was i was talking mostly about the comparing them from a medical standpoint. "if the owner does decide to give them up (and surveys have shown that the vast majority of owners wouldn't), they are still adoptable to other homes." Actually most adult cats are not adopted into homes regardless on if they are declawed or not, most people want a kitten not an adult, so I hate to burst your bubble but most adult cats or dogs end up being destroyed. Surveys are only that... Do this, go to your local vet and get a list of 100 people that got their kittens declawed at the right age and do the survey on them and see and I will bet you $100 that very few of them have had any issues with the declawing. These surveys done at shelters are a quite a bit off because they are really only dealing with the ones with issues and not the total of the population which makes it very one sided. So lets say in Denver that the Denver Dumb Friends League takes in 10 cats a day that have behavioral issues due to declawing and you survey them, well of course you will have a lopsided survey. Now go out on that same day to all the people to all the vet hospitals in Denver and start a survey on the several hundred cats that are declawed a day and see what it shows. And yes I know what you are thinking, so follow them with a yearly survey and see what it says throughout there life. I have worked at the Denver Dumb Friends League (which is the main animal shelter in Denver) as part of my schooling and training. First of all most animals are put to sleep right away whether they say they won't or not because they deam them un-adoptable. Anyways lets say 5 out of the about 50 a day that are brought in are declawed and lets say the average # of declaws performed a day at vet hospitals in the area is 200 (VERY VERY conservative #) thats a pretty small amount that end up having issues, thats a smaller # than issues caused by spay/neutering. You keep choosing to only look at the bad stories and not the good ones. However that fact is that most behavioral issues are cause by the owner not any one procedure. And the sad part is that these people will turn an animal in or have it put down and turn right around and go get another one and do it all over again because they don't understand that they are the problem, not the animal. "Declawed cats that develop problems are not. Again, the information from shelters and from countries that ban declawing simply does not bear out the idea that declawing saves more cat lives than not" I would bet that spay/neutering takes more lives then saves them. And shelters aren't a very good place to option "accurate" data only biased data. They rely on volunteers who like you have more personal opinions than actual knowledge and they are run and supervised by vets who usually can't get a job elsewhere. After having worked at and with shelters I can't even view them seriously anymore. "A declaw is a *less* traumatic surgery than a neuter? That's just so ridiculous a statement, I wouldn't even know how to respond. So I won't. " Umm it is, being that you are educated in vet medicine please explain to me how it isn't? Have you ever done one or the other? In your mind it isn't but a spay or neuter (especially a spay) IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more traumatic to the pet. I think you have the pets and your own thoughts of trauma mixed up. Statements like this one of yours given the fact of your lack of "actual" medical knowledge go to prove why there is so much mixed up info out there. You are more likely to believe some cat lady sitting in her 1 bedroom house with her 400 cats, a computer, an internet connection and a copy of frontpage over actual medical information. Now you get a copy of some of the vet med journals and read some actual facts and then post those otherwise why would I believe some whack job with a web site and no actual medical qualifications over my own 10+ years of actual experience and medical education? "That sounds like a pretty rare case, but I can see where you would decide to do it then. Many cats with such behavior issues when declawed though are likely to resort to biting. " A rare case of a nasty bitch of a cat...... Not a rare case.... maybe in your perfect lil world but that is not a rare case at all, rather common actually. You need to remember when you talk about these things that the general public doesn't value their pets like some of you do. "I see neutering/spaying as necessary to their health and happiness," LOL!!! So if i come over and rip out your sexual organs so you cant ever have sex again and according to you that would fill your life with happiness!! Show me something that says that doing that gives them a happier life. "other than the small amount of discomfort after surgery. " A small amount!!! haha Let me come over and make a 15" incision into your abdomen and take a few organs out and stitch it back up and then I want to hear you say this statement again. Especially on a spay where you have to cut through the abdominal wall which is muscle, your take on reality is pretty messed up and one sided. "with females it prevents uterine infections which can be life-threatening," sure just as you could go in and take out their gall bladder and then say it was for the benefit of the animal because now they won't get gall bladder cancer. So I guess we should do that to all animals as well because ya know... it's beneficial to them. Removing ANY organ from a body will have side effects(good and bad), did you know that? DUH! "it reduces aggression and fighting and spraying, and allows the animal to just lead a calmer life without the stress of wanting to mate when they are being prevented from it" I have also seen that declawing also prevents them from wanting to fight, matter of fact one of the more common procedures that a vet will do is abscesses on cats from cat fighting but yet you see very few of them that are declawed. So you could make an argument for that as well. "So no, I really don't see how you can compare a surgery with so many benefits for them to something like declawing which is done strictly for our happiness, not for the cat's" You are so one sided in your thinking that it is ridiculous. Most of those "benefits" are for you not them. So lets say declawing reduces your cats willingness to fight.. could save it's life. Lets say declawing reduces a cats willingness to roam... it could save it from wondering across the highway and prevent it from being squashed by a semi. For every thing you can say against it I can say something for it. "I think there IS an ethical gap between the two. Declawing is often done for the convenience of just a few people while spaying at least has a societal benefit for many people. Responsible declawing may also prevent the death of an animal while spaying/neutering may reduce suffering for many. " It should be a case by case basis like Jim's and there are a lot of different kinds of cases where the owners want it done and you can't stop them mary but if they follow your advise on it then they will wait to long and then suffer the results that we BOTH agree on and so does that make you happy? "Well... I agree totally that declawing is a last resort issue, but I think there's one very clear benefit to the animal: it stays alive. " Absolutely Jim and thats what she isn't getting in her nice life filled with constant sunshine. But some people are going to do it regardless in which case what I am saying is that if they are going to do it then have it done when it's going to cause the least amount of problems but Mary would rather post pone it and have it done to late and cause the problems. "I think there IS an ethical gap between the two" To some people there isn't, actually I would say to the average cat owner there isn't, they just want it done and they don't think about anything besides what the bill is going to be, just the same they don't have any real idea what is actually involved in doing any of these, all they know or all they care is that it gets done. "If a cat is declawed and develops other issues as a result, they will likely be put to sleep as a result." And if an adult cat is neutered and develops behavioral issues it is also just as likely to be put to sleep, so what makes it different? Remember I am responding mostly with viewing this from a medical side of view NOT a personal side of view. You can give all your personal feelings on it all you want but you really don't have any knowledge about it medically other than what your read on someone's site or your own personal beliefs. When you work in medical you sometimes have to put aside your own beliefs and do your damn job and no matter how much you believe in what you are saying it won't chance what the masses think or do. So AGAIN I will say from a medical point of view if done right (just the same as if a spay/neuter is done right) that if you need to do it then it's not a huge deal. The only arguments that you can give or when it is done wrong and as much as you can't admit it, it can be done right with little or no issues. The best thing to do is talk with your vet about it while the cat is still young and even better if they are young and going in for their "sexual disablement". While vets will have their opinions as well I would listen to and take their advise over someone on some internet forum. > >Well... I agree totally that declawing is a last resort issue, but I > think > >there's one very clear benefit to the animal: it stays alive. > > Not always...that's part of the issue. If a cat is declawed and > develops other issues as a result, they will likely be put to sleep as > a result. Versus a cat that simply scratches furniture...if the owner > does decide to give them up (and surveys have shown that the vast > majority of owners wouldn't), they are still adoptable to other homes. > Declawed cats that develop problems are not. Again, the information > from shelters and from countries that ban declawing simply does not > bear out the idea that declawing saves more cat lives than not. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:248970 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
