On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:09 PM, Robert Munn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't see even the tiniest, remotest possibility of that happening > in the US. Here are a few thoughts: > > - The War on Drugs is a waste of time, money, and resources, but no > one has ever ended up in Gitmo because of it, and everyone prosecuted > under it has had the same rights as every other criminal defendant in > the United States. > Actually, they don't necessarily have the same rights as other criminal defendants. For instance, we passed a law here in Oregon requiring a conviction for seizure of money and property in drug busts. It made the law enforcement community go ape shit. Prior to that initiative passing, they had broad authority to seize and sell anything they deemed associated with a bust even without a conviction. Now the law enforcement groups have lost a significant source of revenue and they have to follow through with prosecutions in order to keep seized items. Beyond that though, your point doesn't deal with the notion of a chilling effect at all. Sure, the glass blower in my example had the right to challenge his arrest. But the point of the operation wasn't to convict the guy. We are talking about a major, coordinated multi-state operation whose purpose was to "send a message". The one guy in the whole bust that they did get jail time for was Tommy Chong. And the prosecution admitted that it went after him because he is a celebrity and a symbol of drug culture. We aren't talking about a simple case of law enforcment arresting someone for breaking the law, we are talking about broad efforts to use the tools of law enforcement to intimidate and cow a segment of society. That's much more pernicious. - Gitmo is in the process of being wound down, not ramped up to house > more people. I'm pretty sure that Gitmo was being used as an example, not the only destination that would qualify as a horrible end. Shipping Maureen off to Diego Garcia, a black site in Eastern Europe or even a Super Max prision in Texas would probably qualify as being pretty ugly. > - Congress controls the levers on the Patriot Act and may well decide > not to renew it next time it comes up. > Oh, well that's comforting. That's exactly how I like my civil liberties protected. > > Personal liberties have always been more restricted during times of > conflict. Part of the compact we make in a civil society is to allow > our government, when necessary, to be a little more intrusive in our > lives, if on balance that intrusion is deemed necessary to protect the > country. Keep in mind that Republicans and Democrats alike have voted > to keep warrant-less wiretaps and other measures in place after seeing > how those measures have directly contributed to saving American lives. > > Should we be vigilant against attacks on personal liberty? Of course. > We should also be vigilant against attacks on our country and our > civilization, which is what we are facing from Al Qaeda. > > I was on the phones for hours in the lead up to teh FISA votes. I sent faxes, I sent emails. I would have sent letters if Congress allowed real mail anymore. I bitched Obama out up one side and down the other on his vote. You won't see me defending Obama on that one. And I'm frequently nauseated at the way that Reid and Pelosi buckle to Bush on important matters like civil liberties. No problems here slapping around the Democratic Party and its leaders when they deserve it. As for the balance of national security and civil liberties...well, that's a matter for debate. Individual rights can only go so far, that is truly part of the social compact. But seriously, do you agree that we are in such dire straits that we need to be fighting for Habeas Corpus seven full years after the last attack on US soil? Freedom is vital to me. If I run a greater risk of dying in a terrorist attack because of living more freely on a day to day basis, that is a risk I'm willing to discuss. Habeas Corpus was suspended in the Civil War when the entire nation was a battlefield, literally. And then again in WWII when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor but was suspended for 3 years and only in Hawaii. I just don't see the current struggle with Al Queda rising to the same level of need as the Civil War and WWII. What is your opinion? Judah ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;203748912;27390454;j Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:269631 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
