On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Jim Davis wrote: >> From: denstar >> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:09 PM
First off, you can't give me a technical win when you'd started off making a point of saying "some". :) Secondly, 25% of Americans is an interesting figure. Have I put "Statistics" in my "interesting" pile yet? Pretty sure I have. ... > But, to be clear, I'll assume this definition for my statements. When I say > "religion", this is what I mean: > > "A codified, communal system of beliefs concerning the existence, nature, > and worship of a supernatural deity or deities, and divine involvement in > the universe presented as ultimate, unchanging truth." > > If all you're looking to do is "win" the argument you can continue doing > what you're doing. Yes, I'm sure that you could prove me "wrong" by finding > (or inventing) some niche religion that invalidates my statement - but it > doesn't change the reality of the problem. Ouch man. :-) I'm not trying to "win" anything. At least not consciously. (I wouldn't put it past my subconscious, but still.=]p) I'm basically picking on the usage of two words, "religion" and "compromise". You seem to rail against the idea of a metaphysical reality, is all. Claiming the two (physical and metaphysical) cannot coexist without "giving up pieces of themselves", as it were. You're positing only niche religions can coexist with Science? Are you mad? :-) If we further redefined "religion" to mean something more in line with "religious fundamentalism" I'd be more inclined to agree. Ideals like the "conservative" view that X is X even if Y is a reference to X and equals AZ. My quote Science unquote examples being "you cannot go faster than the speed of light", or "ESP? Bah!" etc.. Damnit, look at me, still trying to "win". =]p > "Concerning widely-adopted, mainstream, religion (defined above) in the > United State true reconciliation with science is most likely impossible > without compromising either the religious or the scientific values." Ah, in the US of A. See-- I love religion, and science, and philosophy, so my mind don't jump to "western" religions when I hear da word "religion". :-)P I'm just being silly- I get (and got) what you mean, and I agree-- fundamentalists are, um, difficult. I would hazard a guess tho, without jumping over to other country's (sometimes pretty popular) religions (yes, the religions belong to the country), that mostly this argument boils down to "old school" and "new school", and interpretation. Interpretation is pretty key (I've found out from *many* of my "religious" friends). So I'm countering your statement (and basically just saying the cup is half-full) that most mainstream religions in the US cannot coexist with science without compromising values, by stating that if both are "interpreted" right, there is no loss for either. And not just saying "if they are, in some future world utopia type deal", I'm stating they are right now, as both are "interpreted" deals. "True reconciliation" being a not exactly clear term, of course. But still-- there's got to be a lot of Christians (for instance) who can finger out a way to interpret both the Bible (whatever version, this is just an example) and the Principia Mathematica (interesting choices, neh?;]) in a manner that doesn't invalidate (some of?) either system. There has been this battle of the "old" vs. the "new" for... well... maybe ever. I agree that it's a huge problem (or maybe I just think it's.... life-ish;])-- I'm not saying it's ridiculous, by any means, at any rate. Life [philosophy], Science and Religion "should" be about, well, questions, I reckon. "Questioning", perhaps. They should make one /think/ and /reflect/. They should have one constantly saying "how does this relate?", and other such fun things. (Similar concepts to what a bunch of these programming techniques try to accomplish, oddly enough.) Perhaps they should all make you laugh, too. Somehow laughter plays this very serious role in life. Yup. /me laughs rationally Yes, we probably can't have a conversation (/me runs the numbers: X to the Nth against), because I believe "both" ends are infinitely plastic, and much the fun is in that stretchy journey-- and I'd hate to see jellied Jim, so to speak. Which is what would happen if we were to continue this conversation [sober :)]. So to sum it up, within your narrow definition of Religion, I'll give you a "win" for "compromise". I'll also give you a "win" in the "self-correction is the fundamental aspect of Science", even though you never addressed my examples of "Scientists" who suffer the same affliction you attribute to main-stream Religion in the US. HA! I'm such a dork. I was just watching some t.v. station where the religious dude was like "send us your money"... *sigh* you're right, the situation is dire. We're fuxored! =] Remember "United States v. One Book Called Ulysses"? Yeah, guess that's compromise. But /maybe/ it's </mr. smith voice>Evolution</mr. smith voice>. Reality is flexible, is all I'm say'n-- but you gotta /believe/. (well, you don't /have/ to do anything, really. There are always options. Unless there aren't, because you don't consider them such, obviously.) Damnit Jim, I like ya man, hope I haven't burnt you out. [= I've got a 5 pager or so for Sam that is just sitting there (didn't mean to leave you hanging, Sam (who I'm sure has been waiting with bated breath;]))(is it wrong that I just moved my cursor over the closing parenthesis expecting the opening one to be marked?) which I've been meaning to finish and send, (Re: Rush wants Obama to fail, etc.-- yes, that old) so I should probably do that and stop trying to write my own version of the dictionary. 'Cause It's a good one (my post, not my dictionary, which is questionable, at best. -- "good" being relative, I might add). =] -- All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. 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