first give me an operational definition of free will. then it can be tested empirically.
That said, I think the disagreement is how far up or down the causal chain where free will comes into effect. My own view is its comes into effect after all the other causal agents have had their say, so to speak. The prime difference may lie in my own background and training. Its made me very aware of the antecedents to behaviors - genetic/physiological, respondent and operant conditioning, historical, cognitive and belief factors, then what we consider free will. You seem to put the role of free will either before or immediately after genetic/physiological factors and damned be to all else. As for the old saw about government overseers. Consider this, these mechanisms I mentioned are beginning to be very well understood, and are being used. The question becomes whom within society do you want to control these? Governments, whom ideally has the best interests of the citizens at heart? Corporate interests, who are mostly concerned about profits and returns to the shareholders, and not the larger society. Religions - who mostly ought to have the best interests of people - but mostly are interested in power over their followers? Just look at what is happening with Islam, and various branches of the Christian faith. Other organizations or groups? Again we have power and control issues here. Myself, I'm very suspicious of all of the above. We know the history of corporate behavior and how often the profit motive takes precedence over all else, look at such things as the Love Canal, Bhupal India, Minamata and Niigata in Japan, etc., etc.Also do you really want the advertising industry to control these things? Look at their record. Religion - you all know my opinion on most religions and how dangerous they can be to the individual. Other organizations? At the very least there is the matter of accountability and power. So what is left? On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Cameron Childress <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Larry C. Lyons <[email protected]> wrote: >> I think what it does is support both of our points. > > I think you and I will continue to differ on that. I'll take this > thread in a little bit different direction... I really think at it's > root it's a "free will" vs "destiny" argument. > > I feel very strongly that people have free will and that decisions you > make (particularly early in life) can greatly impact your life years > later. That someone's decision to cheat on taxes or to hang out with > a bunch or radicals will effect their life in dramatically negative > ways. I tend to look at a person's decision to involve themselves > with radicals as the force that made them the way they are, not what > the radicals did to the person. That it is still the individual's own > life choices that lead them to their place in life. > > On the other hand - I think that you tend to believe that outside > forces direct you in life. That hanging out with radicals was not the > driving reason someone becomes radicalized or does something terrible. > That it is really the fault of the radicals when someone ends up > flying into a building - not the individual who potentially chose very > early in life to enter into a relationship with them. > > Further, (and this really goes outside the thread) I think that you > tend to believe that it is the government's role as protector to help > guide people to their destiny where I tend to believe that it is the > individual's role to do that. > > Granted this whole discussion does leave out things like genetics, > disease, race, family, and other things that may influence your life > in ways that are not a personal choice. > > This is really not an argument, just a description of how I have > internally shape my picture of our different viewpoints on a number of > things discussed on this list. > > -Cameron > > ... > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:312446 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
