whatever Eric.... I've spent the time I can spend on this. On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Eric Roberts <[email protected]> wrote: > > I never said you dont have to worry about it...talk about reading > comprehension. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 7:35 PM > To: cf-community > Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud storage > > >> unless you specify *US intelligence* and even then, I'll say for a >> third and final time, it is not true as a blanket statement, not as a > matter of law. >> Not yet. *wrong...go ask AT&T and several other providers about >> it...they seemed to think giving away customer data without a fight >> was the right thing to do* > > see above. Re-read carefully with particular attention to the words "as a > matter of law". > >> c) we're talking about routine data-handling procedures, not what >> happens if someone "wants your data." *does it really matter? You >> think they are sniffing packets like a coke addict?* > > Yes, Eric, it really matters. You're still conflating extraordinary measures > legalized after then fact with making something standard operating > procedure. > >> d) if we follow your logic such as it is, we would all refrain from >> posting here lest the feds go all Megaupload on us. That would be >> ridiculous nor are you following that course of action yourself. The >> fact is, they are not interested in my attempt to get some dude in >> Illinois to think about what he is saying. Therefore the tradeoff of >> posting here is worth it. I see enough interesting news and amusing >> sarcasm to make it worth subscribing. *I have nothing posted here >> that I would want public...so I have nothing to hide here...nice try, >> but wrong again* > > can't discern the argument here; incoherent. > >> The >> situation is plenty bad but if you start making apocalyptic baseless >> statements you just discredit the people who are trying to make >> specific and well-researched points about actual proposed changes to >> actual existing laws. *you do remember the saying about assuming, >> right Dana?* > > I don't have to assume when you put your ignorance on display like this. > >> read the links in the thread, just stfu, ok? *what makes you think >> they are not just mining for data...all of the laws we have about >> wiretaps and other data taps have already been violated by the Bush >> administration...who knows what Obama has done...so feel free to go >> fuck yourself* > > I am not making any statements about what they are *doing*. I am saying that > it's specious to opine in a discussion about making data mining legal that > they are probably already breaking the law. At least the law is there for > them to break, Eric. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/us/01nsa.html > (I think the administration appealed) > > We all know about warrantless wiretaps. Saying there's no point in worrying > about it because they may be breaking the law is not an argument I can > respect. > > But you know, feel free to pull your own plug because they might be > listening, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. > >> >> I should probably just filter you out too like I do with the other >> people on the list who don't like to think, sigh. >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Eric Roberts >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> If you knew it was in response to the Swiss location, then why did >>> you try to falsely make it about the laws? It was a statement of > reality. >>> To say that something is more secure because it is in location X is >>> not being very realistic. If a government wants to get your data. >>> They will get it. The statement made about the Swiss company was that >>> it was safe... Even without laws like CISPA, it is still not safe if >>> you want to keep information from the prying eyes of government. To >>> say that this is a platitude only shows ignorance of the reality of >>> things. Yes it is true today and it is only going to get easier as >>> time goes on. The governments of the world could care less about or >>> freedoms and our security. The US Constitution is quickly becoming >>> worth less than the paper it was written on as our government and >>> other so called democracies in the world create more and more >>> draconian laws that limit our freedoms in the sake of the war on >>> terror or >> other bullshit security issues. And no...the tradeoff is not worth it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:12 PM >>> To: cf-community >>> Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud storage >>> >>> >>> do you project much Eric? I'll say it one more time before writing >>> you off as terminally stupid and superficial. I *know* you are taking >>> issue with the Swiss cloud service. My point is that you're doing it >>> for all the wrong reasons. You're saying they can get your stuff >>> anyway if they want it. Yes, but under the status quo it's usually >>> too much trouble unless they have a reason to do that. Geez. At least >>> in theory, European privacy law would apply also, although it's >>> anyone's guess how that would interact with US jurisdiction over .com > domains. >>> >>> The really interesting thing is that "not stored in the US" is >>> becoming a sales point even for people who, as the infamous phrase >>> goes, have nothing to hide. Because we are headed in the direction of >>> routine surveillance where no reason will be needed. >>> >>> And "they can get your stuff anyway" is a bad argument because a) >>> it's not true yet, at least not routinely as a matter of law b) it >>> surrenders on the point of whether it *should* be true -- not unless >>> you're planning mass murder, is my take on this --- and c) since >>> you're making the comment in a thread about privacy it conflates >>> anti-terrorism intelligence and privacy law. Which is exactly what >>> we're saying -- or at least I am saying -- should not be conflated. >>> And you're so sure your unexamined opinion is correct that you keep >>> saying it over and over again. >>> >>> Stop, Eric. Think. Tim and I both talk about the Constitution quite a >>> bit but we normally don't agree this vehemently, do we? Usually he is >>> more about the Second Amendment and I am more about the First. >>> Consider for a minute that this issue may be something you want to >>> think about a little. That will require that you stop emitting >>> platitudes and listen. Yes yes cloud storage raises integrity and >>> security concerns, but normally the tradeoff is worth it anyway. In >>> the >> normal course of business. >>> The factors may weigh out differently if this passes though, which >>> may mean that EC2 is no longer an option for some startups -- for a > start. >>> I'd like to think that a lot of people like Gel will move their >>> stuff, but I suspect that way too many people will say meh, they can >>> get the stuff anyway if they want it. >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Eric Roberts >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> It was in response to the statement of storing in the cloud space in >>>> Switzerland...please read the thread first before commenting and >>>> insulting people Dana. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 12:35 AM >>>> To: cf-community >>>> Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud storage >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. The question is why you said it. >>>> >>>> It has nothing to do with what I said, and if it has nothing to do >>>> with these stupid laws, why did you say it in a thread about these >>>> stupid laws, mmm? I figure it's just your usual fatuous and poorly >>>> thought-out rehash of some irrelevant piece of conventional wisdom. >>>> Next you'll be telling us not to open attachments from people we >>>> don't >>> know. >>>> >>>> Since I'm being this rude to you I'll make one attempt to explain >>>> this to you. If some intelligence agency thinks it needs too, it can >>>> get pretty much anything it wants to, this is true. There is a >>>> process for doing this. A set of safeguards which is often >>>> overlooked and is not that strong to begin with, true, but it does >>>> exist. The fact that there is such a process does not make it ok for >>>> internet companies to be able to do an end run around it any time they > want. >>>> , >>>> Nobody on on this list is going to have an NSA team investigating >>>> them anytime soon, ok? So to the extent that it a web company might >>>> feel a bit queasy about US intelligence sifting through its >>>> customers' data and consider hosting its information elsewhere, the >>>> proposed law does represent a change in the status quo. You're >>>> saying it's already down the toilet so why bother. Feel free to be >>>> that apathetic, but don't complain if other people find it irritating. >>>> >>>> As for Switzerland, I suspect there are better options, but it would >>>> at least give you European privacy law. On the other hand, that >>>> particular service has a .com domain, which the US has claimed in >>>> some cases gives it jurisdiction. But you don't stop going to the >>>> doctor just because some diseases have no cure, right? Just because >>>> the US has the resources to track terrorists if it can identify >>>> them, does not mean we should all shrug off proposals to let >>>> Facebook decide whether individual people need to have their >>>> information shared with the federal government, and let the federal >>>> government do whatever it wants with that information. And maybe if >>>> enough people consider or discuss moving their business elsewhere it >>>> will have an effect. Or not. I still think it's better than >>>> shrugging and turning on the >>> television though. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Eric Roberts >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> No...what I was saying is that it's not safe to save anything on >>>>> the net...whether here or Switzerland or anywhere else. It has >>>>> nothing to do with these stupid laws. I dont know who's ass you >>>>> pulled that assumption out of, but it had nothing to do with what I was > saying. >>>>> I think you need to clear your own ears... >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 10:43 PM >>>>> To: cf-community >>>>> Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud storage >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Clean out your ears. I'm not saying anything of the kind and I >>>>> don't have the patience tonight to help you catch up. >>>>> >>>>> Yon the other hand seem to be saying that because some people's >>>>> information is obtainable by some process when necessary, it's ok >>>>> to do away with the process for everyone's everything. Sorry if I >>>>> am not ok with that. If it doesn't bother you, then don't let me >>>>> stop you from getting back to tonight's episode of The Bachelor or >>>>> whatever, >>> shrug. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Eric Roberts >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How is it sticking your head anywhere...if anything, saying that >>>>>> it's ok to put your info somewhere, knowing theta they can get to >>>>>> it anyway is really sticking your head in the sand and pretending >>>>>> that they can't. If you want to put it out there, that is fine, >>>>>> but realize that no what you do, if you are storing it on the >>>>>> internet somewhere, it is not safe from government if they really >>>>>> want to get to it. The only way to keep it secure is to store it >>>>>> somewhere that is not connected >>>>> to the net. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 7:38 PM >>>>>> To: cf-community >>>>>> Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud >>>>>> storage >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ya, you're right, let's all stick our head ....::cough:: >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, I still say it's an excuse for apathy. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Eric Roberts >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If they want to get to your info...they will...so no...not bullshit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Dana [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:11 PM >>>>>>> To: cf-community >>>>>>> Subject: Re: With CISPA on the horizon, use WUALA for cloud >>>>>>> storage >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> bullshit. That's just an excuse for apathy. Sorry to jump all >>>>>>> over you but I've heard that way too much lately. First of all, >>>>>>> the meaning of safety and security both depend on many factors. >>>>>>> It makes a lot of difference whether we're talking about tracking >>>>>>> cookies or terrorist activity, Anon script kiddies or freaking NSA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's when you talk about cybersecurity as one big fungible mess >>>>>>> that you get stupidity like this bill. Chinese government hackers >>>>>>> fall in the category of cybersecurity, sure. Hollywood has a >>>>>>> cybersecurity problem if their stuff is getting posted on the >>>>>>> web, sure, but it's a different type of cybersecurity problem and >>>>>>> some might say a licensing model problem. Similarly, I think the >>>>>>> authors of this bill see the use of Twitter by Occupy activists >>>>>>> as a cybersecurity problem because it involves the internet and >>>>>>> Occupy makes them feel insecure ;P but I submit that it's not >>>>>>> really, until you criminalize protest, so some might say that >>>>>>> it's really a free speech problem ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But if we throw up our hands over theis because Facebook can't >>>>>>> seem to understand that it should abide by its own terms of >>>>>>> service -- which is a cybersecurity problem for you and me imho >>>>>>> -- then we may as well kiss the internet goodbye. Sure, we should >>>>>>> all take precautions anyway. But a web service that *knows* it is >>>>>>> being use to organize an Arab Spring has a responsibility to put >>>>>>> some safeguards in place also, and it's the corporate >>>>>>> responsibility part that is so shockingly lacking >>>>>> in CISPA. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Eric Roberts >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nothing on the net is safe or secure.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:47 PM, LRS Scout <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, looks like they have some anti-piracy group called SAFE >>>>>>>>> that can pull the plug on sites at will, and do all kinds of >>> surveillance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Eric Roberts < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Didn't the swiss also crack down on stuff like this as well? >>>>>>>>> > Correct me >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> > i am wrong, bu did't they alos go after Pirate Bay? >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Vivec <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > Wuala seems to be the most secure online backup solution. >>>>>>>>> > > It stores >>>>>>>>> > NOTHING >>>>>>>>> > > in the United States and goes to great lengths to ensure >>>>>>>>> > > that its staff have no access to any of your files. It's >>>>>>>>> > > based in >>>>>> Switzerland. >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > With CISPA about to pass in the US (we can hope it won't, >>>>>>>>> > > but so far >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> > > public outrage has been low compared to SOPA and ACTA), >>>>>>>>> > > this is worth a look. We all need to decide how much we >>>>>>>>> > > value our personal/business >>>>>>>>> data, >>>>>>>>> > > and whether we are ok with employees at these companies >>>>>>>>> > > being able to browse what we store. >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > http://youtu.be/43EnCOpXD4Q >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >
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