I don't like the Swiss.....they put holes in my cheese! ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Wheatley)> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: Re: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal?
> bah i hate everyone equally :) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > Wow, Bill hatein on the Swiss. You ok man? > > hehe > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:34 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > Well then the individuals are idiots and obviously didnt understand the > risks well enough to make an informed decision. :) > > Or you guys are all just a bunch of organ donors just excited to donate > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Axiomatique (Vincent)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:36 AM > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > Obviously you didn't understand the point. It's not about "If wearing a > seatbelt OR NOT is safer" > Do you wear your seat belt because it's the law or because it's safer > ???????? > It's not because it's not the law that you should not wear a seat belt ????? > It's up to the individual. And it didn't take 17 years, it took 3-4 tries > within a 3 year period back 17 years ago. > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Envoy� : February 14, 2003 2:31 PM > � : CF-Community > Objet : Re: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > :) > <CF_SNIP> > For example approx. 17 years ago, the "Seat Belt" law was defeated several > times > by the people before it was passed by the people. Now you might think that > this is > the perfect example of the weakness of this system. After all fastening your > seatbelt > while driving is safer. But to me I see this example as an example of true > democracie. > The majority of the people didn't want it, end of story. > </cf_snip> > > Yes very much shows the weakness of the system. What a bunch of bone heads > for whoever votes no for 17 years. Then after maybe they see a close friend > or child die becuase they didnt buckle up them they might change their mind > and then they regret for all their life for being so ignorant of why you > wear a seatbelt. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Axiomatique (Vincent)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 2:23 AM > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > You are correct. It's not a perfect system. None are. > But let's face it. We (Swiss people), feel that we have a say, even > after having voted for our representatives in the government. > Too often when I lived in Canada, I felt that once we had voted for > our members of Parliement, and too often after having choosen between "the > best of > two Evil", we were left powerless. Sure we could demonstrate in the street, > etc.... > But you know what it takes to get a government in power to change it's mind. > It feels like a parent child relationship. "Now, now honey, government knows > best"... > Things are maybe slower (in some cases), but more just. > The bridge story is an excellent one. Obviously the people had determined > that > only after a serious study could they make up their mind about building > a bridge or tunnel. And obviously, the study failed to show that it would > be a good solution, unless you or we think that the people are just > too stupid to know what's best for them. Is faster and cheaper BETTER ? > > And don't think that we the people in Switzerland vote for every little > things, but for the majority of important > issues on the Federal, Cantonal (State) and Communales (City/County) level. > The job of our representatives in government is to phrase new laws or > amendments to old laws, to > explain them to the people, then it becomes a battle between the Yes and the > No > sayers through the media, then it becomes our responsability to make up our > minds > about the direction that you as a citizen wants to take. > For example approx. 17 years ago, the "Seat Belt" law was defeated several > times > by the people before it was passed by the people. Now you might think that > this is > the perfect example of the weakness of this system. After all fastening your > seatbelt > while driving is safer. But to me I see this example as an example of true > democracie. > The majority of the people didn't want it, end of story. > > Vincent. > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Andre Turrettini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Envoy� : February 13, 2003 5:45 PM > � : CF-Community > Objet : RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? > > > But you have to admit it doesnt always work in a very efficient fashion. > > For example, take the geneva traffic issue. > > They had this massive vote as to whether to study building a bridge or a > tunnel on or under the lake. > Then when time ran out, they had this massive vote to continue studying the > bridge or tunnel. > Then when they finished studying the bridge or tunnel. They had this > massive vote to choose which one to build. > But in the end after having spent millions upon millions of francs, the vote > was not to build anything. > This is on a span of over 10 years. > > or in one instance, some official was swamped with work and requested more > employees. Guess what happened. > They had this massive vote to determine if he could have more emplyees. > Guess what happened. . . they denied him. Sorry, no more employees. > > Certainly, it is the extreme of democracy but its not very quick. Far > slower than what we have in the states. > > disclaimer. This is hearsay from several swiss people I know so some of the > details may be a bit hazy. > > Now, note, I'm not thrashing it. I'm just stating that its got its flaws > and isnt perfect either. > I do think its pretty cool that every single citizen got to vote as to > whether to join the eu. > > As per walking around. It all depends where you walk. > DRE > > -----Original Message----- > From: Axiomatique (Vincent) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:00 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? > > > Crime rate has everything to do with Freedom... > I feel free to walk the streets of any cities in Switzerland and Canada at > any hour of the day... sure with some caution in some > area of some of the cities, but believe me there is no comparaison with the > real risk that I have faced and you face in some US cities after > midnight.... on any given day. > I rather have less crime to fight against with a system that might be less > free (remains to be proven though) then a Great System to fight too much > crime. > > Switzerland as a Referendum system where the people themself vote for the > laws that governs the land. > Not their representives in the government but you as a person have a vote > for each of these laws... > I don't see anything close to that in the US. What's that for freedom of > speech ! > > I have lived in Canada for 16 years, I was born and lived now in Switzerland > (approx. 24 years). > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Envoy� : February 13, 2003 4:13 PM > � : CF-Community > Objet : RE: Is America Evil? > > > Hmmm, I guess I am not the troll I really want to be. I was hoping this > topic would cause some conversation. Is everyone just really busy today or > what? I would have at least expected the UK contingent to weigh in. > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > From: Timothy Heald > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:08 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? > > > I have lived in Canada. I do not feel it is as free as the US. Canadians > do not have a right to defend themselves with firearms. They have extremely > high taxes, socialized health care and a nationalized education system. > They have a stronger central government than even the US. So yes I do think > we have a better country going than Canada. > > "Freedom stops when you refrain someone else's ability to be free in the > name of your own freedom." > > What do you mean by this? That we are attempting to put limits on > Hussein's freedom to make new weapons, and to continue torturing his people? > Remember he lost that war 12 years ago. He agreed to certain stipulations > as part of his surrender in order to stay in power. He is not meeting the > requirements of those stipulations. > > "Freedom of speech with no boundaries can hurt or kill innocent people." > > I think that the value of free speech far outweighs the potential damage. > Here again is a base difference between the US and much of the rest of the > world. Remember this saying, and you will begin to understand much of the > US > > "He who gives up essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves > neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin. > > That's sums up how I feel about so many issues today. That and the idea > that government which governs least governs best. > > Also I didn't not make a factual statement. I put forth my opinion. I do > think we are the best thing going, I know we are not the only nation in the > world that values freedom, I just THINK we are the closest to it. I don't > know of any nation that has more freedom than the US. Also I don't see what > crime rate has to do with this debate at all. We are talking about freedom, > and true freedom would assist in fighting the very crime you speak of. Also > what exactly are we "showing off"? > > Tim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Axiomatique (Vincent) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:55 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Is America Evil? > > > Tim, I would have to agree with you for most of the points. > But you are forgetting something really important about your statement: > "I know we are not perfect, but I truly think we are still the best thing > going." You are NOT THE ONLY ONE ... and certainly not THE BEST THING GOING. > They are several countries around the world with as much freedom and more, > as the US > with a much, much lower crime rate, and these countries are not showing it > off ! > This is partially why a lot of people around the world are calling you (the > US) names. > It's your inability to recognize that other countries around the world can > have as good and better > governing system. One easy example that every US citizens should know about > is Canada. > Freedom stops when you refrain someone else's ability to be free in the name > of your own freedom. > That's when common sense should come into the picture, but .... > Law suits for pitty things. > Law suits for financial gain. > Freedom of speech with no boundaries can hurt or kill innocent people. > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Envoy� : February 13, 2003 2:33 PM > � : CF-Community > Objet : Is America Evil? > > > Someone made the comment earlier that they were ashamed to be an American. > That the rest of the world viewed us as evil and so forth. I would ask, is > not Iraq a truer evil? Or North Korea, or Red China? The list of countries > that daily rape murder and steal from their people is I would think longer > than the list the is supportive of it's citizens. > > In how many countries could you call your highest government officials Nazis > and fascists and not be arrested or at least censored? Not many. Even in > many of the so called democracies of western Europe and South America, the > government can step in and limit the press virtually at will. > > In the U.S. we look at things differently than the rest of the world. This > is a statement of fact. Here we give our government it's power. Think > about that idea for a minute. I know that today it doesn't always feel like > it, but really a popular grass roots movement could pretty much completely > rewrite our form of government. That is the power of the people in the US. > Now I am sure we won't. Apathy is far more popular than politics here. In > many other countries, especially no-western countries, government is seen as > allowing the people certain privileges. Look at China and it's attempt to > limit internet access, or at Venezuela, it's new leftist government recently > seized a "vital" soda bottling plant for "the people". So there is one > major difference between us and much of the rest of the world. > > In many countries you are not guaranteed the right to a trial. Even if you > are given a trial it is often times a sham trial. Many countries require > you to prove your innocence not the other way around. Some countries think > that torture and murder are just part of governing. In the US it's > considered cruel and unusual if you don't have cable TV in your jail's > lounge. > > We are called evil butchers by countries that sponsor terrorism. We are > called war criminals by Amnesty International, while China is busy summarily > executing people, and Pakistan allows local religious leaders to order > stonings and mutilations. > > We who brought this planet into the digital age. Built much of this world > economy, we are accused of trying to limit the free exchange of ideas, and > we are accused of protectionist economic measures. Meanwhile the Economies > of China, Japan and many other nations would be in ruins if we weren't > buying their goods. The final slap in our collective face in this > arrangement is the fact that these same countries often prohibit the sale of > American goods. > > We who have fought evil and tyranny, freed Europe, and helped end > colonialism. We are now called colonial imperialists. People in countries > that have no fundamental freedoms, like those in Iran and Iraq, Syria, and > Jordan, those people scream against our "oppression". They claim to fight > for freedom. Anyone who has ever been to a Muslim country knows that > freedom is not the word to use. If you have seen sharia up close you know > what it truly is. Totalitarian, enforced, theology. > > I have left Israel and Palestine last for good reason. I have been there > and done that so to speak. I have seen "the evils of Israel". These so > called evils included completely terraforming a dead dessert into a vibrant, > living land. This in just over 50 years, while many of the other nations in > the region have had centuries to work on it, and still can't manage to grow > their own crops. To this day almost all of the buildings in use in the > Sinai are leftovers from when Israel still owned that land. If it were not > for Israel much that region would not have food or water, clothes, and other > daily necessities. The economic relationship between Israel and the middle > east is often left out of the picture. The governments of countries like > Egypt, the same governments that spew forth hate against Israel in the > national press, don't want their people to know that they need Israel. They > want their people to have an outside, Zionist enemy. That way they don't > see the evils inside their own nation. > > I know we are not perfect, but I truly think we are still the best thing > going. > > Again I remind you that none of this is governments opinion, just my own. I > speak for no one but myself. > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
