Kevin,
You make an excellent point. However I am not saying the
inalienable rights, of which their are only three, life liberty and the
pursuit of happiness. Those rights guaranteed in the bill of rights can be
changed through the amendment process and are, therefore not inalienable.
Also we have never afforded enemies the same rights as citizens. Why
should we start now? Simply because he doesn't wear the uniform of the
enemy? In the Army we called that a saboteur and you can summarily execute
them without a trial, and that is according to the Geneva convention. We
are not doing that in this case. We are holding them in Cuba, feeding and
clothing them. Far better than their own governments would do to them.
I will have to look into the citizens being held. I remember
hearing about the guy from Chicago a while ago, but hadn't heard anything
recently. That is troubling to me. Honestly man, we are at war with a
culture that is very different than ours. There is no such idea as
fundamental human rights in many of these places. Life is not valued in the
same way as it is by us. It makes it difficult for me to look at both of
these things at once, on one hand I would love to afford all people
everywhere the same rights. As a civil libertarian I would love to see all
the world open to the rights we hold dear. At the same time I value the
national security of our nation and it's people. Tough call really.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:59 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal?
Tim,
I wish I had links handy, but I don't keep a library of them. Much of what I
mentioned was from radio or newspaper reports. I wish I could better defend
my comments, but you can use google just as easily as I would have to in
this case.
I will mention that the detained US citizens issue is/was an interesting
one. I haven't heard anything about it for something like six months now,
but as memory serves the people were swept up and held in secret. The
government refused to release their names or even a count of how many were
being held, and the only way people knew about it was from the families of
the missing talking to the media. But now the media isn't even reporting on
it, so there appears to be no voice for these people anymore. I don't know
if the media was told not to comment on it, or if it's just not considered
newsworthy, or if, hopefully, they were released and I just didn't hear
about it.
As for the non-citizens being held, my opinion as I mentioned long ago, is
that if the U.S. is a nation founded on principles of _inalienable_ rights
as outlined in the Declaration of Independence, then that applies to ALL
people everywhere. If however, as you seem to support, the rights of people
are NOT inalienable but dependent upon whether they live in a certain
country, then the "self-evident truths" are not truths at all and the
founding philosophy of the U.S. is a sham.
-Kevin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 1:44 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal?
>
>
> I haven't painted it as rosy at all. I, like you, take issue with all the
> things you said below. All I have said is it's the best thing going right
> now.
>
> I answered most of it inline also - Tim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 2:25 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal?
>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 11:19 AM
> >> To: CF-Community
> >> Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal?
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's the "British" Idea of freedom. Precautionary arrests. Hehe.
> >>
> >> http://www.ds-osac.org/view.cfm?key=7746534A47&type=3D13151D011112
> >>
> >> Tim
> >>
>
> >How is that different from the U.S. "detaining" (imprisoning) hundreds of
> >U.S. citizens indefinitely with no charges and no recourse to
> representation
> >and no chance to even confront those who witness against them?
>
> What hundreds are you talking about? I know of one, and I am dead set
> against doing that to US citizens. Now non-citizens is something totally
> different.
>
>
> >How is that different from our government prosecuting librarians for
> telling
> >people that the government has subpeonead records about them?
>
> What prosecutions have taken place? For what charges? Not trying to
> disagree, just hadn't heard about it and wanted to look into it.
>
> >How is that different from the government monitoring attorny/client
> >conversations and using that against them?
>
> I am kind of torn about this. The way I understood this part of
> the law was
> the it could not be used against the person, but could be used to prevent
> further acts. As long as the conversation was inadmissible in
> court than I
> am ok with it.
>
> >How is that different from the Patriot Act allowing the government to
> search
> >and seize without probable cause if the investigation is under
> the label of
> >terrorism?
>
> I think that's awful. I know it's true.
>
> >How about wiretaps with no warrant if it's labeled a terror
> investigation?
>
> There are still safeguards in place, several have already been voided by
> lawsuits, and as soon as Americans start to be tried with some of the
> results of these I am sure you will start seeing the laws being overturned
> in the supreme court.
>
> >And then there's the grey area of monitoring "public" conversations and
> >gatherings, even those on private networks, in an effort to stifle
> >discourse.
>
> On private (LAN) networks it's a no go. On the internet, I will
> be honest I
> never consider myself to be alone or not under watch. I mean how
> can we who
> know about this technology actually have a reasonable expectation
> of privacy
> on an open network. Just like walking on the street, no expectation of
> privacy.
>
> >And if we want to stray away from the post-9/11 changes, we can look at
> >other erosions of civil rights, such as the 4th Amendment not applying to
> >your car.
>
> I have always thought that was wrong.
>
> >Or how about local laws, like the ones we have here that let the police
> lock
> >people up without a formal arrest or charges, just for standing on the
> >sidewalk? They call them "loitering laws" here and I know they
> were modeled
> >after laws in many other communities. I expected these to get
> smacked down
> >immediately by the ACLU, but they've stood for several years now.
>
> Depends on the specific law. Some are really bad (NYs is, but it's not
> often enforced)
>
> >Or, since you place such a weight on the right to bear arms, how about
> local
> >ordinances that prevent such ownership? They claim it's because of
> proximity
> >to schools or public places, but it's just a way to ban guns. Heck, most
> >cities have laws against carrying a pocket knife.
>
> You should know how I feel about this one, I think almost all gun
> law should
> be overturned. Still the best of most other countries.
>
> >Freedom of speech? That's a laugh in a country that created the DMCA. So
> far
> >the government hasn't used it to prevent political speech, but it's been
> >used to squash plenty of people in other venues.
>
> Granted that DMCA is bad, but when compared with some of the
> draconian laws
> in regards to a public press that many other nations have it's nothing.
>
> >I agree with you that the U.S. isn't all bad and evil, but it
> sure as hell
> >isn't as rosy as the picture you're painting in your comments either.
>
> I wasn't trying to make it look all good, just trying to show
> that it's not
> as bad as people make it seem, and show that for all of it's faults it is
> still in my opinion the best thing going.
>
> -Kevin
>
>
>
>
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