Wow, Bill hatein on the Swiss. You ok man? hehe
Tim -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 9:34 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? Well then the individuals are idiots and obviously didnt understand the risks well enough to make an informed decision. :) Or you guys are all just a bunch of organ donors just excited to donate ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axiomatique (Vincent)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:36 AM Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? Obviously you didn't understand the point. It's not about "If wearing a seatbelt OR NOT is safer" Do you wear your seat belt because it's the law or because it's safer ???????? It's not because it's not the law that you should not wear a seat belt ????? It's up to the individual. And it didn't take 17 years, it took 3-4 tries within a 3 year period back 17 years ago. -----Message d'origine----- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoy� : February 14, 2003 2:31 PM � : CF-Community Objet : Re: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? :) <CF_SNIP> For example approx. 17 years ago, the "Seat Belt" law was defeated several times by the people before it was passed by the people. Now you might think that this is the perfect example of the weakness of this system. After all fastening your seatbelt while driving is safer. But to me I see this example as an example of true democracie. The majority of the people didn't want it, end of story. </cf_snip> Yes very much shows the weakness of the system. What a bunch of bone heads for whoever votes no for 17 years. Then after maybe they see a close friend or child die becuase they didnt buckle up them they might change their mind and then they regret for all their life for being so ignorant of why you wear a seatbelt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axiomatique (Vincent)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 2:23 AM Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? You are correct. It's not a perfect system. None are. But let's face it. We (Swiss people), feel that we have a say, even after having voted for our representatives in the government. Too often when I lived in Canada, I felt that once we had voted for our members of Parliement, and too often after having choosen between "the best of two Evil", we were left powerless. Sure we could demonstrate in the street, etc.... But you know what it takes to get a government in power to change it's mind. It feels like a parent child relationship. "Now, now honey, government knows best"... Things are maybe slower (in some cases), but more just. The bridge story is an excellent one. Obviously the people had determined that only after a serious study could they make up their mind about building a bridge or tunnel. And obviously, the study failed to show that it would be a good solution, unless you or we think that the people are just too stupid to know what's best for them. Is faster and cheaper BETTER ? And don't think that we the people in Switzerland vote for every little things, but for the majority of important issues on the Federal, Cantonal (State) and Communales (City/County) level. The job of our representatives in government is to phrase new laws or amendments to old laws, to explain them to the people, then it becomes a battle between the Yes and the No sayers through the media, then it becomes our responsability to make up our minds about the direction that you as a citizen wants to take. For example approx. 17 years ago, the "Seat Belt" law was defeated several times by the people before it was passed by the people. Now you might think that this is the perfect example of the weakness of this system. After all fastening your seatbelt while driving is safer. But to me I see this example as an example of true democracie. The majority of the people didn't want it, end of story. Vincent. -----Message d'origine----- De : Andre Turrettini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoy� : February 13, 2003 5:45 PM � : CF-Community Objet : RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? But you have to admit it doesnt always work in a very efficient fashion. For example, take the geneva traffic issue. They had this massive vote as to whether to study building a bridge or a tunnel on or under the lake. Then when time ran out, they had this massive vote to continue studying the bridge or tunnel. Then when they finished studying the bridge or tunnel. They had this massive vote to choose which one to build. But in the end after having spent millions upon millions of francs, the vote was not to build anything. This is on a span of over 10 years. or in one instance, some official was swamped with work and requested more employees. Guess what happened. They had this massive vote to determine if he could have more emplyees. Guess what happened. . . they denied him. Sorry, no more employees. Certainly, it is the extreme of democracy but its not very quick. Far slower than what we have in the states. disclaimer. This is hearsay from several swiss people I know so some of the details may be a bit hazy. Now, note, I'm not thrashing it. I'm just stating that its got its flaws and isnt perfect either. I do think its pretty cool that every single citizen got to vote as to whether to join the eu. As per walking around. It all depends where you walk. DRE -----Original Message----- From: Axiomatique (Vincent) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:00 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Crime rate has everything to do with Freedom... I feel free to walk the streets of any cities in Switzerland and Canada at any hour of the day... sure with some caution in some area of some of the cities, but believe me there is no comparaison with the real risk that I have faced and you face in some US cities after midnight.... on any given day. I rather have less crime to fight against with a system that might be less free (remains to be proven though) then a Great System to fight too much crime. Switzerland as a Referendum system where the people themself vote for the laws that governs the land. Not their representives in the government but you as a person have a vote for each of these laws... I don't see anything close to that in the US. What's that for freedom of speech ! I have lived in Canada for 16 years, I was born and lived now in Switzerland (approx. 24 years). -----Message d'origine----- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoy� : February 13, 2003 4:13 PM � : CF-Community Objet : RE: Is America Evil? Hmmm, I guess I am not the troll I really want to be. I was hoping this topic would cause some conversation. Is everyone just really busy today or what? I would have at least expected the UK contingent to weigh in. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Heald Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:08 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: Is America Evil? I have lived in Canada. I do not feel it is as free as the US. Canadians do not have a right to defend themselves with firearms. They have extremely high taxes, socialized health care and a nationalized education system. They have a stronger central government than even the US. So yes I do think we have a better country going than Canada. "Freedom stops when you refrain someone else's ability to be free in the name of your own freedom." What do you mean by this? That we are attempting to put limits on Hussein's freedom to make new weapons, and to continue torturing his people? Remember he lost that war 12 years ago. He agreed to certain stipulations as part of his surrender in order to stay in power. He is not meeting the requirements of those stipulations. "Freedom of speech with no boundaries can hurt or kill innocent people." I think that the value of free speech far outweighs the potential damage. Here again is a base difference between the US and much of the rest of the world. Remember this saying, and you will begin to understand much of the US "He who gives up essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin. That's sums up how I feel about so many issues today. That and the idea that government which governs least governs best. Also I didn't not make a factual statement. I put forth my opinion. I do think we are the best thing going, I know we are not the only nation in the world that values freedom, I just THINK we are the closest to it. I don't know of any nation that has more freedom than the US. Also I don't see what crime rate has to do with this debate at all. We are talking about freedom, and true freedom would assist in fighting the very crime you speak of. Also what exactly are we "showing off"? Tim -----Original Message----- From: Axiomatique (Vincent) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 8:55 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Tim, I would have to agree with you for most of the points. But you are forgetting something really important about your statement: "I know we are not perfect, but I truly think we are still the best thing going." You are NOT THE ONLY ONE ... and certainly not THE BEST THING GOING. They are several countries around the world with as much freedom and more, as the US with a much, much lower crime rate, and these countries are not showing it off ! This is partially why a lot of people around the world are calling you (the US) names. It's your inability to recognize that other countries around the world can have as good and better governing system. One easy example that every US citizens should know about is Canada. Freedom stops when you refrain someone else's ability to be free in the name of your own freedom. That's when common sense should come into the picture, but .... Law suits for pitty things. Law suits for financial gain. Freedom of speech with no boundaries can hurt or kill innocent people. -----Message d'origine----- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoy� : February 13, 2003 2:33 PM � : CF-Community Objet : Is America Evil? Someone made the comment earlier that they were ashamed to be an American. That the rest of the world viewed us as evil and so forth. I would ask, is not Iraq a truer evil? Or North Korea, or Red China? The list of countries that daily rape murder and steal from their people is I would think longer than the list the is supportive of it's citizens. In how many countries could you call your highest government officials Nazis and fascists and not be arrested or at least censored? Not many. Even in many of the so called democracies of western Europe and South America, the government can step in and limit the press virtually at will. In the U.S. we look at things differently than the rest of the world. This is a statement of fact. Here we give our government it's power. Think about that idea for a minute. I know that today it doesn't always feel like it, but really a popular grass roots movement could pretty much completely rewrite our form of government. That is the power of the people in the US. Now I am sure we won't. Apathy is far more popular than politics here. In many other countries, especially no-western countries, government is seen as allowing the people certain privileges. Look at China and it's attempt to limit internet access, or at Venezuela, it's new leftist government recently seized a "vital" soda bottling plant for "the people". So there is one major difference between us and much of the rest of the world. In many countries you are not guaranteed the right to a trial. Even if you are given a trial it is often times a sham trial. Many countries require you to prove your innocence not the other way around. Some countries think that torture and murder are just part of governing. In the US it's considered cruel and unusual if you don't have cable TV in your jail's lounge. We are called evil butchers by countries that sponsor terrorism. We are called war criminals by Amnesty International, while China is busy summarily executing people, and Pakistan allows local religious leaders to order stonings and mutilations. We who brought this planet into the digital age. Built much of this world economy, we are accused of trying to limit the free exchange of ideas, and we are accused of protectionist economic measures. Meanwhile the Economies of China, Japan and many other nations would be in ruins if we weren't buying their goods. The final slap in our collective face in this arrangement is the fact that these same countries often prohibit the sale of American goods. We who have fought evil and tyranny, freed Europe, and helped end colonialism. We are now called colonial imperialists. People in countries that have no fundamental freedoms, like those in Iran and Iraq, Syria, and Jordan, those people scream against our "oppression". They claim to fight for freedom. Anyone who has ever been to a Muslim country knows that freedom is not the word to use. If you have seen sharia up close you know what it truly is. Totalitarian, enforced, theology. I have left Israel and Palestine last for good reason. I have been there and done that so to speak. I have seen "the evils of Israel". These so called evils included completely terraforming a dead dessert into a vibrant, living land. This in just over 50 years, while many of the other nations in the region have had centuries to work on it, and still can't manage to grow their own crops. To this day almost all of the buildings in use in the Sinai are leftovers from when Israel still owned that land. If it were not for Israel much that region would not have food or water, clothes, and other daily necessities. The economic relationship between Israel and the middle east is often left out of the picture. The governments of countries like Egypt, the same governments that spew forth hate against Israel in the national press, don't want their people to know that they need Israel. They want their people to have an outside, Zionist enemy. That way they don't see the evils inside their own nation. I know we are not perfect, but I truly think we are still the best thing going. Again I remind you that none of this is governments opinion, just my own. I speak for no one but myself. Tim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
