> I am aware of what you are saying and I do NOT refute it with or > without Brian's comment. However, since my original email never > specified official Fusebox people I don't see the relevance.
My point was that although FB users like to spout off, the official FB people don't like to advocate FB in such a manner. I mean really, who cares if Brian said something like that? It's just his opinion about a product he uses. Big deal. > > -Matt > > On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 05:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >> From your original messsage: > > > > "Second, I have seen numerous references by Fusebox people both > > in and > > out of this thread in regards to how the sheer number of people > > using Fusebox is an important point. " > > > > I'm saying that the official FB people do not do this. > > > > So, tell me again why Brian's comment somehow refutes this > statement.> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:25 pm > > Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox > > > >> I am aware that it is Brian's own opinion and that of anyone else > >> who > >> has made a statement like that. Whether Brian is associated with > >> Fusebox officially is irrelevant. I shared the quote from this > >> thread > >> simply as an example in regards to the statement I made. > >> > >> -Matt > >> > >> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 05:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >>> That's Brian's own opinion. He is not a member of the Fusebox > team.>>> > >>> On Fusebox.org's web page: > >>> > >>> "Fusebox is a standard framework and methodology for building > >>> web-based applications. Currently used by well over 17762 people > >> from > >>> around the world, Fusebox attempts to reduce the 70% software > >> failure > >>> rate (download 105KB) by creating a standard framework and > >> methodology > >>> for writing web applications and managing web development > projects.">>> > >>> Nothing special there. Certainly doesn't sound like they're > >> tooting > >>> their own horn. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:00 pm > >>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox > >>> > >>>> How about the following quote from this thread for example. > >>>> > >>>> "When compared to the alternatives (no structure at all, > someone's>>>> > >>>> personal > >>>> best guess at something, or some superior approach that > >> conspicuously>> manages to never actually be revealed) it is the > >> best thing I've > >>>> found > >>>> so > >>>> far. And about 17,000 other people agree. " > >>>> > >>>> -Matt > >>>> > >>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 04:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I don't think the Fusebox people are using that X number to say > >>>> that > >>>>> because there are so many X people using FB, so should you. > >>>> Rather, > >>>>> it's there for informational purposes, and to say that, yeah, > >>>> people > >>>>> are using it. Maybe not a lot in comparison to some other > >>>> framework, > >>>>> but the only winner in a comparison like that is the most > >>>> popular item > >>>>> in it's class. > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:34 pm > >>>>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox > >>>>> > >>>>>> See my response to another email along similar lines. > >> However, I'd > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> respond to your email a little differently. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Based on my earlier message it could be said that there is 10 > >>>>>> times as > >>>>>> many Java developers as CF developers, so why would one use CF > >>>>>> over > >>>>>> Java? There are tons of answers to that question that I think > >> most>>>> of > >>>>>> us know. In fact, we know these answers so well that we > disregard>>>>>> the > >>>>>> number of Java developers as irrelevant. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now then... with so many more people using Struts as > opposed to > >>>>>> Fusebox > >>>>>> (both of which can be used in Java and CF), why would one use > >>>>>> Fusebox > >>>>>> over Struts? The answers to that question aren't as > important as > >>>>>> realizing that most CF developers don't know them. Thus, > whenever>>>>>> someone tries to sell Fusebox based on the number > of people using > >>>>>> it > >>>>>> the obvious question remains, why not use something with a > >> greater>>>> > >>>>>> following? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't use Struts or Fusebox, so I don't care. I only > point this > >>>>>> out > >>>>>> to show how silly the whole "17,000 people use Fusebox and you > >>>>>> should > >>>>>> too" line is. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -Matt > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 03:29 PM, Sandy Clark wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Why are you comparing the numbers using a Java Framework > to the > >>>>>> numbers> using a ColdFusion framework? Isn't that like > comparing>>>>>> Appes to > >>>>>>> Oranges? It > >>>>>>> has no meaning. Does this mean that because there are > more Java > >>>>>>> Programmers, we should all just stop using CF and move to > Java??>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Struts is the most popular framework for Java. It doesn't > mean>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> Struts > >>>>>>> can be used in C++ Development, nor does it mean that it > can be > >>>>>> used in > >>>>>>> ColdFusion development (I did read the article on DevNet), but > >>>>>> not > >>>>>>> everyone > >>>>>>> is doing cross Java/CFMX development. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Instead compare Apples to Apples. Compare Struts to something > >>>>>> like > >>>>>>> JADE > >>>>>>> (IBM) or Barracuda. Compare Fusebox to things like > BlackBox or > >>>>>>> SmartObjects. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Those are true comparisons I would like to see. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:00 PM > >>>>>>> To: CF-Talk > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I saw this thread mentioned on Sean's blog and I was thinking > >>>> about>>> rejoining this list before reading his blog, so here I > >>>> am. I'm not > >>>>>>> interested in trying to rehash much of the debate since I am > >>>>>> late to > >>>>>>> this thread, but I feel like it is important to make at > >> least a > >>>>>> couple> of points. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> First, I largely agree with Dave's position in this > debate, but > >>>>>> I don't > >>>>>>> agree with him in regards to his application of common > sense in > >>>>>> lieu of > >>>>>>> a framework. I think frameworks are extremely valuable and can > >>>>>> make an > >>>>>>> enormous difference in the success of web applications > >>>>>> especially where > >>>>>>> more than 3 people on working on them. Of course, picking the > >>>> wrong>>> framework for an application can lead to all sorts of > >>>> problems,>> so the > >>>>>>> notion of one framework being the correct one in every case > >>>>>> should be > >>>>>>> abandoned. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Second, I have seen numerous references by Fusebox people both > >>>>>> in and > >>>>>>> out of this thread in regards to how the sheer number of > people>>>>>> using> Fusebox is an important point. I like to put > that into > >>>>>> perspective a > >>>>>>> bit. According to Fusebox.org, there are 17756 using Fusebox. > >>>>>> Not sure > >>>>>>> where that number comes from, but let's apply that to the > number>>>>>> of CF > >>>>>>> developers, which is supposed to be about 300,000. That > >> would mean > >>>>>>> about 6% of CF developers are using Fusebox. Now then, let's > >>>> assume>>> that 6% of Java developers are using Struts. Since > >> there is > >>>>>> supposed to > >>>>>>> be about 3,000,000 Java developers that would mean there > >> would be > >>>>>>> 180,000 Java developers using Struts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There are a lot of reasons why one would use Struts over > >>>> Fusebox and > >>>>>>> vice versa, but if sheer numbers matter to people than Struts > >>>> is the > >>>>>>> way to go since it is used by a lot more people. BTW, if you > >>>>>> don't buy > >>>>>>> the above numbers; take a look at the Amazon.com sales > rankings>>>>>> for the > >>>>>>> 10+ struts books vs. the Fusebox books. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -Matt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 12:27 PM, Erik Yowell wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Trade offs. Everything is a trade off. Sometimes the quick, > >>>>>>>>> unstructured 'hack' is the right solution... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This for me (being a small shop) is why I've extensively > >>>>>> adopted a > >>>>>>>> framework like Fusebox. Most of my projects are not going to > >>>>>> become an > >>>>>>>> Amazon.com anytime soon, while this doesn't mean I should > write>>>>>> sloppy>> code - it does allow the flexibility of > allowing a > >> bit of > >>>>>> a processing > >>>>>>>> overhead in lieu of manageability and the ability to > bring in > >>>>>> external>> talent to easily assist me in changes (if > needed) by > >>>>>> providing a good > >>>>>>>> set of standards and the Fusebox docs. I don't have to spend > >>>>>> precious>> time educating another developer on the > >> intricacies of > >>>>>> a custom > >>>>>>>> framework. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Despite what organizations like Rational think (in the sense > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>> is no such thing as RAD development) - I mean, come on > now, how > >>>>>> many>> developers out there have had the "I needed it > yesterday">>>>>> conversation>> with a client? I find having the > ability to > >> quickly>>>> find and make > >>>>>>>> changes to medium sized projects, forced structuring of > >> code and > >>>>>>>> application processes to be a boon. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Erik Yowell > >>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>>>>> http://www.shortfusemedia.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. http://www.cfhosting.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
