It may not be a big deal to you, but many people are on this list because they care about the opinions of others. In fact, I believe this thread started with one developer asking for the opinions of others. If there weren't any opinions to debate in this thread then there wouldn't be any substance either.
-Matt On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 06:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> I am aware of what you are saying and I do NOT refute it with or >> without Brian's comment. However, since my original email never >> specified official Fusebox people I don't see the relevance. > > My point was that although FB users like to spout off, the official FB > people don't like to advocate FB in such a manner. I mean really, who > cares if Brian said something like that? It's just his opinion about > a product he uses. Big deal. > >> >> -Matt >> >> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 05:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >>>> From your original messsage: >>> >>> "Second, I have seen numerous references by Fusebox people both >>> in and >>> out of this thread in regards to how the sheer number of people >>> using Fusebox is an important point. " >>> >>> I'm saying that the official FB people do not do this. >>> >>> So, tell me again why Brian's comment somehow refutes this >> statement.> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:25 pm >>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >>> >>>> I am aware that it is Brian's own opinion and that of anyone else >>>> who >>>> has made a statement like that. Whether Brian is associated with >>>> Fusebox officially is irrelevant. I shared the quote from this >>>> thread >>>> simply as an example in regards to the statement I made. >>>> >>>> -Matt >>>> >>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 05:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's Brian's own opinion. He is not a member of the Fusebox >> team.>>> >>>>> On Fusebox.org's web page: >>>>> >>>>> "Fusebox is a standard framework and methodology for building >>>>> web-based applications. Currently used by well over 17762 people >>>> from >>>>> around the world, Fusebox attempts to reduce the 70% software >>>> failure >>>>> rate (download 105KB) by creating a standard framework and >>>> methodology >>>>> for writing web applications and managing web development >> projects.">>> >>>>> Nothing special there. Certainly doesn't sound like they're >>>> tooting >>>>> their own horn. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:00 pm >>>>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >>>>> >>>>>> How about the following quote from this thread for example. >>>>>> >>>>>> "When compared to the alternatives (no structure at all, >> someone's>>>> >>>>>> personal >>>>>> best guess at something, or some superior approach that >>>> conspicuously>> manages to never actually be revealed) it is the >>>> best thing I've >>>>>> found >>>>>> so >>>>>> far. And about 17,000 other people agree. " >>>>>> >>>>>> -Matt >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 04:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think the Fusebox people are using that X number to say >>>>>> that >>>>>>> because there are so many X people using FB, so should you. >>>>>> Rather, >>>>>>> it's there for informational purposes, and to say that, yeah, >>>>>> people >>>>>>> are using it. Maybe not a lot in comparison to some other >>>>>> framework, >>>>>>> but the only winner in a comparison like that is the most >>>>>> popular item >>>>>>> in it's class. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:34 pm >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See my response to another email along similar lines. >>>> However, I'd >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> respond to your email a little differently. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on my earlier message it could be said that there is 10 >>>>>>>> times as >>>>>>>> many Java developers as CF developers, so why would one use CF >>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>> Java? There are tons of answers to that question that I think >>>> most>>>> of >>>>>>>> us know. In fact, we know these answers so well that we >> disregard>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> number of Java developers as irrelevant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now then... with so many more people using Struts as >> opposed to >>>>>>>> Fusebox >>>>>>>> (both of which can be used in Java and CF), why would one use >>>>>>>> Fusebox >>>>>>>> over Struts? The answers to that question aren't as >> important as >>>>>>>> realizing that most CF developers don't know them. Thus, >> whenever>>>>>> someone tries to sell Fusebox based on the number >> of people using >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> the obvious question remains, why not use something with a >>>> greater>>>> >>>>>>>> following? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't use Struts or Fusebox, so I don't care. I only >> point this >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>> to show how silly the whole "17,000 people use Fusebox and you >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> too" line is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Matt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 03:29 PM, Sandy Clark wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why are you comparing the numbers using a Java Framework >> to the >>>>>>>> numbers> using a ColdFusion framework? Isn't that like >> comparing>>>>>> Appes to >>>>>>>>> Oranges? It >>>>>>>>> has no meaning. Does this mean that because there are >> more Java >>>>>>>>> Programmers, we should all just stop using CF and move to >> Java??>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Struts is the most popular framework for Java. It doesn't >> mean>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> Struts >>>>>>>>> can be used in C++ Development, nor does it mean that it >> can be >>>>>>>> used in >>>>>>>>> ColdFusion development (I did read the article on DevNet), but >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> everyone >>>>>>>>> is doing cross Java/CFMX development. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Instead compare Apples to Apples. Compare Struts to something >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> JADE >>>>>>>>> (IBM) or Barracuda. Compare Fusebox to things like >> BlackBox or >>>>>>>>> SmartObjects. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Those are true comparisons I would like to see. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:00 PM >>>>>>>>> To: CF-Talk >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I saw this thread mentioned on Sean's blog and I was thinking >>>>>> about>>> rejoining this list before reading his blog, so here I >>>>>> am. I'm not >>>>>>>>> interested in trying to rehash much of the debate since I am >>>>>>>> late to >>>>>>>>> this thread, but I feel like it is important to make at >>>> least a >>>>>>>> couple> of points. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, I largely agree with Dave's position in this >> debate, but >>>>>>>> I don't >>>>>>>>> agree with him in regards to his application of common >> sense in >>>>>>>> lieu of >>>>>>>>> a framework. I think frameworks are extremely valuable and can >>>>>>>> make an >>>>>>>>> enormous difference in the success of web applications >>>>>>>> especially where >>>>>>>>> more than 3 people on working on them. Of course, picking the >>>>>> wrong>>> framework for an application can lead to all sorts of >>>>>> problems,>> so the >>>>>>>>> notion of one framework being the correct one in every case >>>>>>>> should be >>>>>>>>> abandoned. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Second, I have seen numerous references by Fusebox people both >>>>>>>> in and >>>>>>>>> out of this thread in regards to how the sheer number of >> people>>>>>> using> Fusebox is an important point. I like to put >> that into >>>>>>>> perspective a >>>>>>>>> bit. According to Fusebox.org, there are 17756 using Fusebox. >>>>>>>> Not sure >>>>>>>>> where that number comes from, but let's apply that to the >> number>>>>>> of CF >>>>>>>>> developers, which is supposed to be about 300,000. That >>>> would mean >>>>>>>>> about 6% of CF developers are using Fusebox. Now then, let's >>>>>> assume>>> that 6% of Java developers are using Struts. Since >>>> there is >>>>>>>> supposed to >>>>>>>>> be about 3,000,000 Java developers that would mean there >>>> would be >>>>>>>>> 180,000 Java developers using Struts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are a lot of reasons why one would use Struts over >>>>>> Fusebox and >>>>>>>>> vice versa, but if sheer numbers matter to people than Struts >>>>>> is the >>>>>>>>> way to go since it is used by a lot more people. BTW, if you >>>>>>>> don't buy >>>>>>>>> the above numbers; take a look at the Amazon.com sales >> rankings>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>> 10+ struts books vs. the Fusebox books. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Matt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 12:27 PM, Erik Yowell wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Trade offs. Everything is a trade off. Sometimes the quick, >>>>>>>>>>> unstructured 'hack' is the right solution... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This for me (being a small shop) is why I've extensively >>>>>>>> adopted a >>>>>>>>>> framework like Fusebox. Most of my projects are not going to >>>>>>>> become an >>>>>>>>>> Amazon.com anytime soon, while this doesn't mean I should >> write>>>>>> sloppy>> code - it does allow the flexibility of >> allowing a >>>> bit of >>>>>>>> a processing >>>>>>>>>> overhead in lieu of manageability and the ability to >> bring in >>>>>>>> external>> talent to easily assist me in changes (if >> needed) by >>>>>>>> providing a good >>>>>>>>>> set of standards and the Fusebox docs. I don't have to spend >>>>>>>> precious>> time educating another developer on the >>>> intricacies of >>>>>>>> a custom >>>>>>>>>> framework. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Despite what organizations like Rational think (in the sense >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> is no such thing as RAD development) - I mean, come on >> now, how >>>>>>>> many>> developers out there have had the "I needed it >> yesterday">>>>>> conversation>> with a client? I find having the >> ability to >>>> quickly>>>> find and make >>>>>>>>>> changes to medium sized projects, forced structuring of >>>> code and >>>>>>>>>> application processes to be a boon. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erik Yowell >>>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>>> http://www.shortfusemedia.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
