clear the air I promise...
(Please take everything I say about the project direction from a past
standpoint as I am not steering anymore)
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:02:47 -0700, Sean Corfield
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Wrong. CFE has always had a cfml perspective.
>
> That was pointed out in the comments on that blog entry (which is why
> I specifically mentioned the comments were interesting). It isn't the
> default perspective after installing CFE and, unless you're familiar
...
> Again, assuming you are familiar enough with how Eclipse works. It's
> obvious how to minimize / maximize views but not obvious at first how
> to makes views go away altogether (or how to restore them later). Yes,
> I figured it out after a while but this all goes to how Eclipse + CFE
> behaves out of the box vs how He3 behaves out of the box - CFE relies
> on users knowing a fair bit about Eclipse, He3 doesn't (or at least
> doesn't rely as much on it). A lot of CFers who've tried Eclipse say
> they don't like how complex it is (or appears to be) - it definitely
> takes some getting used to.
I think the main disconnect is that he3 is a product by a company -
CFEclipse is a free plug-in for eclipse - nothing more. CFEclipse is
not a product with an installer and a group of plug ins to make things
easy for install. We try to help people out getting started with
eclipse, we show them where to find good plug ins, but its not a
product like he3 is attempting to be. So most of the bad points you
had in your blog were not even what the project is about. We have
talked about maybe bundling some plug ins and making a product, but
that's not what cfeclipse is about.
It would be like me comparing the windows os with a com object and
saying the com object wouldn't boot by it's self out of the box so it
sucks, but even though the windows os crashes it boots up by itself so
it wins.
I would've thought it more of a fair comparison to talk about the
general day to day tools usage stuff like spike and you discussed in a
previous post.
>
> > CFEclipse has preferences - it always has.
>
> Again, read the comments where Spike points out how to find the CFE
> prefs and I respond "Preferences. Thanx. I was looking for a dedicated
> CFEclipse preference section (like He3 has) so I didn't notice that. I
> can now set the insight delay to match what I have on He3!". It's
> another Eclipse complexity that is just easier to find in He3.
Integration vs branding - one of the my original goals (albeit
unspoken), was to try in our little way to help move cfml more into
the enterprise. Eclipse is big with larger shops (mostly because it's
forced on people under the name WASD) so it makes sense to integrate
it seamlessly with eclipse - not brand it and stand out - but we have
since changed directions.
> > Again this is silly - it's one line of code - a good thing about cfe
> > is that it does number coloring?! Do you even write cf code Sean?
>
> Er, yeah, quite a bit actually...
I know you do I was being a dick :)
> So even when I praise CFE (it's
> color-coding is better than He3's) I still get flamed? The comparison
> needs revisiting when He3 have fixed their color-coding of course but
> right now it's much easier to read code in CFE.
It just the fact that we have put many hours in this
(http://code.daemon.com.au/cgi-bin/cvsmonitor/cvsmonitor.pl?cmd=viewBrowseModule&module=cfeclipse.cfeclipse),
and made feature that don't exist anywhere and the only ataboy we get
is the color coding which is not that hard. You roll up in you new car
and I say... nice bolt on the wheel there.
> > date inserter that inserts the date to where your cursor is in the file
>
> Er, I never insert the date into a file... Why would I need to?
To mark when you did something - some people don't use cvs or vss
(though they should) - I now just do it out of habit (though I don't
when I write java... um... )
> > Can anyone say re-invent the wheel? There are at least 2 other plug
> > ins for eclipse that do just that.
>
> Ease of use - He3 bundles a bunch of useful stuff that works well
See above
> > And again, should your CFML editor be good at CFML or
> > Fusebox XML?
>
> Obviously I'd prefer it be good at both :)
What I mean is cfeclipse does cfml - fuseboxeclipse does fusebox3
specific stuff (vaporware) etc. You for example probably don't give a
rip if it does fusebox while I know you dig mach-ii So you wouldn't
"install" the fusebox plug in
> > While we are planning on framework support, don't you
> > think it makes more sense to have a fusebox or mach-ii plug in?
>
> No. I want it built-in. See above. I'm a lazy ass when it comes to my IDE! :)
hehehe, well built in could mean different plug ins in the same ide.
cfeclipse does... cfml. If we do bundle a product we'll bundle it with
any framework plug ins - so it'll look built in as far as you'll know
> > Some people don't care about fusebox or mach-ii, and
> > architecturally it doesn't belong in the core of CFML tools - it goes
> > a layer above it.
>
> For me, Mach II support is *core* for my CFML IDE. HomeSite+ lets you
> import a DTD and provides code assist against it. So does DW. He3 goes
> a couple of steps beyond that and, for me, that's a very important
> advantage.
Yeah I think we are talking about 2 different things - your talking
work flow where mach-ii is core for sure, I am talking plugin design
where cfml is one thing and framework is another. They work together
in a seamless way but they are separate. Having one really big plugin
that does all kinds of things is not following the design
specifications of Eclipse
> > However, I am more saddened that you seem so
> > biased, and obviously didn't even give cfeclipse a real try.
>
> I've given it several tries so far and will keep trying it. As I
> pointed out in my response to Spike, it's really hard to use an IDE
> "for real" when it eats up CPU and chokes your machine :( It's not
> like I've uninstalled CFE or anything...
Yeah spike told be about the browser view problem and you are right -
on mac it eats cpu cycles if you leave it idle - it doesn't do that on
windows or linux though. If you close the browser view it stops - just
close the browser view if you feel like playing with cfeclipse.
>
> > I wouldn't mind if you didn't like it for real reason
>
> My reasons are real enough but different people are going to have
> different reasons for liking or disliking a given IDE.
I hate the fact in eclipse you cant break off the windows and see the
desktop - meaning everything has to be in one window (you can break
them out in windows but not in mac - go figure) so you are right
everyone has likes and dislikes, but cfeclipse is not an IDE its a
plug in for eclipse.
> Also both of them went to do work for New
> Atlanta which isn't exactly going to make "hommies" with anyone at
> Macromedia! :)
ok, good point
> In the meantime I've chatted with Spike quite a bit in IM and email
> about a wide variety of things and I'd have considered him more of a
> "hommie"...
Well that's just because spike is hella cool.
> I think it's going to be very interesting to see how both He3 and CFE
> develop. There's clearly a lot of interest in both within the CF
> community and I'm sure we'll lots of opinions on both sides...
True - sorry I flamed you too, but I hope you see where I am coming
from. If you read your blog I hope you can see how it seems very
slanted, and a lot of people listen to you. I look forward to reading
your next one anyway it goes.
If you have any questions or comments feel free to email me off list
anytime you want.
cheers,
rob
--
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
~open source XML database~
http://ashpool.sourceforge.net
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