Raul wrote > I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing space.
I was on the point of doing the same myself when I discovered an addon I'd hitherto overlooked. load 'general/primitives' …will generate in the _z_ locale a set of cover words for all the J primitives. AFAICT the names are NuVoc-compatible, but I haven't verified this in detail. There is an option (which alas needs the script itself to be edited) for lowercase or CamelCase words. The same addon will also convert a script. IMO the addon is buried away and easily overlooked by a beginner. This needs fixing somehow. There should be several prominent adverts for its existence in NuVoc I can also think of improvements(?) I'd like to make to it, as it stands. Ideas for detecting or preventing name clashes, and deleting unused words. Should this addon (or the words it creates) be part of stdlib? If not, why not? (I want to know for my own better understanding.) @Raul -you may already be aware of this addon, and intend to base your demo upon it. I suggest we all do just that, and all of us treat further work in this direction as extending this addon. There is a danger of reinventing the wheel. (I speak for myself.) Ian Clark >>> RESENDING due to reported error. Sorry if posting is duplicated. On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:48 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > Note that you can pack a lot more information into a tool-tip > (mouse-over popup than you can in a name. The ui for would, I think, > also be more intuitive. > > I'll see if I can throw together a demo when I've got some breathing space. > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > > > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 8:20 PM, james faure <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I don't really like the idea of i at all: people don't have to use any > features of j they don't understand. > > > > I like an idea related to your words suggestion: we could have an > interpreter switch that translates the symbols to English names, as an aid > for beginners. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chat <[email protected]> on behalf of Jack > Andrews <[email protected]> > > Sent: Friday, March 2, 2018 2:12:26 AM > > To: Chat forum > > Subject: Re: [Jchat] Where is J going ? > > > > i'm an outsider to j - coming from k (but i've spent some time with j). > > > > how about a simpler j - say "i", which is implemented in j but hides some > > of the "harder to learn" features. > > the language could have only adverbs, verbs and nouns and eliminate forks > > (and conjunctions?). > > it could also use words like "insert" or "over" in place of the glyph > > the k style lambdas are easy to use, too. > > > > this might be an easier entry into j and allow people to discover j by > > using i. > > this is much like the k/q distinction in the kx language. > > > > > > On 2 March 2018 at 10:51, Jose Mario Quintana < > [email protected] > >> wrote: > > > >> :D > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am > >> > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can > >> > > > >> > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still > >> > contributes > >> > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence > is > >> > > noticeable sometimes). > >> > > > >> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious > interest > >> > in > >> > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current > situation, > >> in > >> > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. > >> > > > >> > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall > >> > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he > is > >> > now > >> > > (AFAIK) with... Dyalog APL! He also still contributes to the forum > >> > > occasionally. > >> > > > >> > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago > >> > discussing, > >> > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to > >> advance > >> > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly > >> > > under-utilized paradigm. What was their conclusion? It was > hopeless > >> to > >> > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, > they > >> had > >> > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm. However, they would > >> > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations. (I > >> doubt > >> > > the strategy was a new one.) > >> > > > >> > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from > their > >> > > perspective. At the very least you have provided a sample. Thanks > for > >> > > taking the time for doing so. > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure < > [email protected]> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current > >> course, > >> > > it > >> > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have > >> abandonned J > >> > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch > >> from > >> > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest > my > >> > > friends > >> > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from > Epitech > >> > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I > believe > >> > they > >> > > > are convinced of it's power. > >> > > > > >> > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> > >> > > > international.epitech.eu > >> > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to > >> Epitech > >> > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech > has > >> > > > solidified its reputation ... > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious > interest > >> > in > >> > > > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current > situation, > >> in > >> > > the > >> > > > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that > between > >> > the > >> > > > time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was > extremely > >> > > unsure > >> > > > about whether the language would have a future and whether it > would > >> be > >> > > > suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story > is > >> > the > >> > > > reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering > to > >> > > myself > >> > > > from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is > >> > > suitable, > >> > > > or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and > seems to > >> > be > >> > > > the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even > >> with > >> > > > those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I > am > >> > both > >> > > > extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects > with > >> > > plenty > >> > > > of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I > remain > >> > the > >> > > > only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past > the > >> > > first > >> > > > few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be > done > >> so > >> > > in > >> > > > the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some > of > >> my > >> > > > statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not > criticisms, > >> > > more > >> > > > like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me > >> > arrogant > >> > > > because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not > affiliated > >> > with > >> > > > nor in charge of jsoftware. > >> > > > > >> > > > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the > >> source > >> > > > forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of > >> > optimization > >> > > > for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple > >> times > >> > > > that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and > >> this > >> > > has > >> > > > even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some > serious > >> > > > doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest > threat > >> to > >> > > J's > >> > > > existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends: > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very > difficult > >> > to > >> > > > make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced > to > >> > > > preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no > doubt > >> > > > sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be > >> > > renamed. > >> > > > > >> > > > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find > things. > >> > Some > >> > > > people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare > minute > >> of > >> > > > visiting it. > >> > > > > >> > > > 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely > >> > popular > >> > > > nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation > and > >> > will > >> > > > always try to formulate their question to google first. Should > this > >> > prove > >> > > > unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J > has > >> > > almost > >> > > > no presence on SO. > >> > > > > >> > > > 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an > >> > > abherration: > >> > > > nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to > activate > >> > > this > >> > > > and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all > have > >> > much > >> > > > more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given > >> > logical > >> > > > names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the > namespace > >> is > >> > a > >> > > > miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using phrases > like > >> '2 > >> > > o. > >> > > > y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need standard > >> > default > >> > > > names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the > >> miniscule > >> > > > performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent names, > >> the > >> > > > possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more > important. > >> > > > > >> > > > 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should > >> > > > certainly not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run > >> > > optimally > >> > > > > >> > > > 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way > more in > >> > > > keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, > and I > >> > > very > >> > > > much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into > explaining > >> J, > >> > > but > >> > > > the website's overall presentation is not good. > >> > > > > >> > > > 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the > >> labs, > >> > > > (not my learning style but for sure they are valuable) > >> > > > > >> > > > 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used > interactively, > >> on > >> > > > jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd > >> > party > >> > > > https://tio.run/#j > >> > > > > >> > > > This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not > sufficiently > >> > > > hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. > >> > > > > >> > > > 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats > the > >> > > > binary, builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' > >> > should > >> > > > print some example uses of insert and a brief summary) > >> > > > > >> > > > 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank > >> > error' > >> > > > not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending > >> nouns + > >> > > > their ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug > >> > interface, > >> > > > but this shouldn't be necessary. > >> > > > > >> > > > 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many > >> more > >> > > > explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). > >> > > > > >> > > > 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given > >> the > >> > > > current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, > and it > >> > > must > >> > > > lie dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising > up > >> > > again, > >> > > > in a new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting > for. > >> > > > > >> > > > I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but > >> > things > >> > > > must change, and radically if J is to live. > >> > > > > >> > > > J4 > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ---------- > >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> forums.htm > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
