+1 same weakness + big fingers on small iPhone keyboard :( Urgent need for a second one...
We choose Clojure in 2008 strictly for efficiency. In 2009 after being in prod, we were told that hiring would be a major problem. We dealt with this noise by accepting the fact that we will train people. Why ? Because we need 7 to 10 times less people. Everything got simpler from design to deployment. We get people to learn by adding tests. I can't stand TDD but I agree that safeguards like automated tests add value. So let the newcomers do the boring stuff while they learn :) I think that there is a huge perception problem. For some reason apparently in the industry complex systems = huge teams. It looks to me more like a peeing contest more than anything else. My team is bigger than yours, blablabla,.... Like if bigger meant better.... To me big teams are mostly a sign of inefficiency except if you intend to send men on the moon or similar unusual goals. Luc P. > + Grammar. I should not write correspondence before having coffee. > > On Thursday, August 21, 2014 9:31:42 AM UTC+2, Henrik Eneroth wrote: > > > > Sweden has some things going for it, and some not, as always. I think > > business overall is somewhat less cutthroat here than in the States, which > > is why it struck me that I might be making assumptions about what OP should > > or should not do out of ignorance of his situation. The scape goat > > reasoning really brought this home. > > > > At the two most recent places I've been (I'm a consultant, a UX designer), > > they've worked with autonomous teams. That is, the teams are themselves > > responsible for deciding how to solve a problem, sometimes including what > > programming language to use. One result of this seems to emerge (I only > > have a sample size of two) a microservice centered design and a general > > decoupling between the teams. > > > > Also, it naturally seems to lead to a more heterogeneous environment, for > > good or for bad. This seems to be somewhat self-regulating however, as > > other most members of a team will protest if one member wants to write the > > new service in the Shakespearean Programming Language, for example. It also > > leads to the same kind of resistance to more sensible choices as well, like > > Clojure. But unlike SPL or Brainfuck, they actually have chance of being > > used if they show merit, probably by filling some niche role to begin with. > > > > When I was with Spotify, I learned that they had snuck in some Clojure in > > one of the teams of the organization. No one has been fired yet, and > > everyone seems happy enough. Especially the people who now get to do at > > least *some* Clojure during their work day. > > > > Oh, and like Linus, I try to promote Clojure wherever I go. As a designer, > > I'd love to work with a team that uses Clojure. That is, a team that > > understands that incidental complexity eventually seeps out to for the user > > to deal with, and so on. Unfortunately, being framed as a designer means I > > have less natural authority when I say that Clojure is awesome. Although > > this is somewhat mitigated somewhat by the sheer shock of having a designer > > saying something comprehensible about a programming language. > > > > On Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:44:18 AM UTC+2, Quzanti wrote: > >> > >> "If an investor were kicking people out, its usually because money is > >> running low or for other more diffuse reasons. If an investor or boss > >> somewhere where kicking out people at random, he would quickly loose > >> respect from his other employeers. The rest would soon leave as well" > >> > >> Hence the need for a scapegoat. Generally if an investor can make 20% of > >> their startups work, people will blame the technologists for the failure > >> of > >> the other 80%, and the investor will have a PR machine to distort the > >> history if needed. But yes, startup hubs work best when there are angel > >> investors who want to build a personal reputation or where the > >> institutional investors have strong links with the universities producing > >> the start up talent and so don't want to jeopardise those (eg the Stanford > >> University system). Even the best VCs will shut down the majority of their > >> start ups though, so you'd think that would make people avoid them, but > >> there are always people out there who need money to try and realise their > >> dreams. > >> > >> All a bit tangential to the the original thread question though, which > >> was assuming a high growth, high pressure, scale it up fast, need results > >> kind of culture, would Clojure be a good fit? > >> > >> On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 11:46:48 PM UTC+1, Linus Ericsson wrote: > >>> > >>> Well, for better or worse we don't like conflicts that much. This has > >>> benefits when it comes to some kinds of problem solving (the way to > >>> consensus in Swedish companies is worth at least a chapter in a big book > >>> about antrophology). This shyness for open conflicts can lead to > >>> stagnation. > >>> > >>> This means that status quo is not turned over that easily, but when it > >>> does, it happens like an avalanche (cow oscillator comes to mind). > >>> Stockholm University has Clojure and Erlang in its second year curriculum > >>> for computer science. Just saying. > >>> > >>> Apart from that, its 3kloc database queries and Java classes galore and > >>> Wordpress shops all over, like everywhere else. The single larges group > >>> of workers in Stockholm is of course computer programmer. 33000 people > >>> out > >>> of a million of so. > >>> > >>> If an investor were kicking people out, its usually because money is > >>> running low or for other more diffuse reasons. If an investor or boss > >>> somewhere where kicking out people at random, he would quickly loose > >>> respect from his other employeers. The rest would soon leave as well. > >>> > >>> "In Sweden we have a system..." the ironic saying goes, but the truth is > >>> that even though the housing situation is outright catastrophic, you > >>> would > >>> not ever be put on the street if you wasn't psychotic enough not to > >>> accept > >>> the help offered (worst case you would end up in a sad, sleepy, far far > >>> out > >>> suburb with long commuting distances, but hey). The social security > >>> system > >>> is simply generous enough to make sure people gets back on track, should > >>> it > >>> be long time unemployment or whatever (this, and elderly care jobs, are > >>> powering much of the popular music industry here). > >>> > >>> Ah, everybody generalizes all the time. Henrik can nuance the picture. > >>> > >>> I have been programming and promoting Clojure quite aggressively for > >>> some years (it's hard not to), and the last months people have been > >>> starting to say "yeah, my java friends really likes it" or "yes, my bf > >>> likes it too". > >>> > >>> Wind of change. > >>> > >>> /Linus > >>> working at Agical AB, a consultancy in love with technology and > >>> sometimes hosting Clojure Meet ups with Stockholm Clojure User Group and > >>> wov, so much thing I really can help companies with everywhere, epic win > >>> > >>> On Wednesday, August 20, 2014, Quzanti <quz...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Just looked at your profile. Sweden? A very enlightened place. I am a > >>>> big fan of the Paradox Interactive games. What happens in Sweden when > >>>> investors lose their money? > >>>> > >>>> On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 7:16:55 PM UTC+1, Henrik Eneroth wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> … as soon as anything goes wrong whether it has anything to do with > >>>>>> the technology choice or not you become mr fall guy, to be blamed and > >>>>>> fired > >>>>>> so that other people can keep their jobs. Seen it happen so many > >>>>>> times. > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Good lord, truly? Perhaps this is a good time to ask what culture OP > >>>>> lives in. This wouldn't happen where I live/work. > >>>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > >>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > >>>> your first post. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > >>>> --- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >>>> an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>> > >>> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Luc Prefontaine<lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> sent by ibisMail! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
