A cursive glance at this makes me want to marry you (if you don't mind
me bringing my current wife and 4 kids?).

Thanks Mike.

On 22 April 2015 at 15:28, Mike Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 9:02:04 AM UTC+10, Mike Thompson wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 11:43:12 PM UTC+10, Colin Yates wrote:
>> > Yes, that is a valid reduction. Specifically my register-handler,
>> > which only has access to db needs to know the result of f.
>> >
>> > The general principle of having my register-sub delegating to a defn
>> > which is called from the register-handler is causing the pain because
>> > there is actually a hierarchy of subscriptions going on here, so the
>> > value of f might actually be resolving a chain of subscriptions. For a
>> > simplified example:
>> >
>> > (register-sub :reference-data/locations)
>> > (register-sub :reference-data/active-locations .. (reaction (subscribe
>> > [:reference-data/locations))))
>> > (register-sub :page-1/location .. (reaction (if (following-defaults?
>> > (-> db ...) @(subscribe [:reference-data/active-locations))))
>> >
>> > the value of :page-1/location is of interest.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 21 April 2015 at 14:27, Mike Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:58:31 PM UTC+10, Colin Yates wrote:
>> > >> Hi Mike - yeah, reading through I wasn't very clear. Let me try again
>> > >> with a more fleshed out example:
>> > >>
>> > >> On the server there is a hierarchy, each node in that hierarchy may
>> > >> contain some meta data for example:
>> > >>  :id - the unique id of the node
>> > >>  :type - indicating some semantics about that particular node
>> > >>  :current? - indicating whether it is still actively used or not
>> > >>
>> > >> Imagine there are 5 nodes and node 4, which is a leaf is not :current?.
>> > >>
>> > >> On the client I have a number of projections of this data:
>> > >>  - an "active" tree which prunes out all nodes that aren't :current?,
>> > >> so there are 4 nodes
>> > >>  - an "everything" tree which shows everything, e.g. all 5 nodes
>> > >>
>> > >> In addition, every node in each tree is selected and there are
>> > >> multiple instances of these trees.
>> > >>
>> > >> On the client (on a reporting page for example, where one of these
>> > >> trees are in the filter) I need to know which nodes the user has been
>> > >> selected. I have a handler, which in response to some event (either
>> > >> the server indicating new data is available or the user changing some
>> > >> data) which needs to know which nodes have been selected.
>> > >>
>> > >> If the user hasn't selected anything then the 'selected nodes' should
>> > >> be the default set (i.e. all of the nodes). As soon as the user
>> > >> changes the selection (by deselecting a node in the first instance)
>> > >> the set of selected nodes is now every node that is selected (e.g.
>> > >> every node apart from the one they just selected) and that instance of
>> > >> the tree is no longer tracking the defaults.
>> > >>
>> > >> The server is free to send new config data at any point in time. When
>> > >> this happens, the default set should be updated. The non-default set
>> > >> that the user has changed should also be consolidated as well, but
>> > >> that is different.
>> > >>
>> > >> Lets say my app state looks like:
>> > >>
>> > >> {:page-1 {:some-active-tree {:selected-ids [] :tracking-default? true}
>> > >>                 :another-active-tree {:selected-ids [] 
>> > >> :tracking-default? true}
>> > >>                 :some-all-tree {:selected-ids [] :tracking-default? 
>> > >> true}}
>> > >>
>> > >> The user hasn't done anything so the selected-ids should be the
>> > >> default sets (4 ids for :some-active-tree and :another-active-tree and
>> > >> 5 ids for :some-all-tree). If the user were now to deselect node 2 in
>> > >> :another-active-tree then app-state looks like:
>> > >>
>> > >> {:page-1 {:some-active-tree {:selected-ids [] :tracking-default? true}
>> > >>                 :another-active-tree {:selected-ids [0 1 3]
>> > >> :tracking-default? false}
>> > >>                 :some-other-tree {:selected-ids [] :tracking-default? 
>> > >> true}}
>> > >>
>> > >> If they deselect node 3 in some-other-tree:
>> > >>
>> > >> {:page-1 {:some-active-tree {:selected-ids [] :tracking-default? true}
>> > >>                 :another-active-tree {:selected-ids [0 1 3]
>> > >> :tracking-default? false}
>> > >>                 :some-other-tree {:selected-ids [0 1 2 4]
>> > >> :tracking-default? false}}
>> > >>
>> > >> Should the server now update the config hierarchy changing node 4 back
>> > >> to :current? and adding another node then at the very least the
>> > >> 'selected nodes' for :some-active-tree should contain the ids of all 6
>> > >> nodes.  :another-active-tree and :some-other-tree should also be
>> > >> informed but they might not be updated depending upon the selections
>> > >> (it gets more complicated...).
>> > >>
>> > >> At this point it is clear that one solution is to record a delta from
>> > >> the defaults, but that only works because we are talking about
>> > >> booleans; there are other non-boolean use-cases unfortunately.
>> > >>
>> > >> Another solution is to store the sets of defaults in app-state itself
>> > >> rather than have it be a subscription and then overtime it changes
>> > >> update the affected parts of app-state (:some-tree and
>> > >> :some-other-tree in this example).
>> > >>
>> > >> This would be much easier if it was just dealing with rendering data,
>> > >> in which case subscriptions are a perfect fit, but the set of data
>> > >> needs to be sent back to the server periodically in a handler, and
>> > >> handlers can't see subscriptions.
>> > >>
>> > >> To be frank, if anyone is still reading, my experience tells me that
>> > >> if the problem is this hard to explain and requires this much
>> > >> explanation then _I_ haven't understood it properly :), so I think I
>> > >> need some more hammock time is in order.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks for anybody who hasn't lost the will to live yet ... :).
>> > >>
>> > >> On 21 April 2015 at 13:08, Mike Thompson <[email protected]> 
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> > On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 4:52:05 AM UTC+10, Colin Yates wrote:
>> > >> >> Hi,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> This is somewhat reframe specific, but how do people handle 
>> > >> >> default-values that can change? My specific use-case is that I have 
>> > >> >> a tree which can be expanded and collapsed. By default the tree 
>> > >> >> should be expanded to a certain level, however, as soon as the user 
>> > >> >> manually expands or collapses a node they should no longer follow 
>> > >> >> the default. The data the tree is displaying can change, meaning the 
>> > >> >> defaults can change over time.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I can't simply define the defaults on startup because the defaults 
>> > >> >> will change over time.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> It can't be a subscription because the values need to be available 
>> > >> >> in the handler.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> My current thinking is that the app-db state has a 
>> > >> >> 'follow-defaults?' which is true by default but is set to false when 
>> > >> >> the user explicitly changes the state (e.g. by expanding or 
>> > >> >> collapsing). When the underlying hierarchy changes from the server, 
>> > >> >> propagate that change to all of the parts of the app-state that are 
>> > >> >> interested.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> To be explicit, imagine I have the following template for tree: 
>> > >> >> {:expanded-ids [] :follow-defaults? true}. There are 6 instances of 
>> > >> >> this template in the app-db  (i.e. 6 distinct UI trees). When the 
>> > >> >> server informs the client that the source-data has changed it then 
>> > >> >> updates each instance where follow-defaults?.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I understand the rationale as to why subscriptions can't be in the 
>> > >> >> handlers but a subscription which switches on follow-defaults? seems 
>> > >> >> ideal.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Maybe I could hack a UI-less component which reacts to that 
>> > >> >> subscription change by directly updating the underlying db...
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> What would you all do?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Hi Colin,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm not sure I'm clear on the problem. Here's my attempt to explain 
>> > >> > back ...
>> > >> >
>> > >> > You have some setting (data) in your app (tree display state) which 
>> > >> > can be:
>> > >> >    1. in a server-supplied state (you call this "default" state?)
>> > >> >    2. optionally, in user-supplied state (if present, overrides 1).
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Over time, new versions of 1. arrive.  If 2. exists, it always 
>> > >> > overrides 1.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Have I understood?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > Mike
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hmm.  I don't get the specifics, but maybe we can talk abstractly ...
>> > >
>> > > You have values a and b which can change over time. And you have another 
>> > > value c which is a function (f) of a and b.
>> > >
>> > >      (f a b) => c
>> > >
>> > > And, a b and c are all stored in `app-db`.
>> > >
>> > > And then when, say, 'a' gets updated (server?  user?), you want to 
>> > > (reactively) modify the value in c again.  After all, its value is a 
>> > > function of a and b, and a just changed?
>> > >
>> > > And you are reaching for `subscribe` as a way to sorta know when to 
>> > > rerun 'f' to recalculate new 'c'.
>> > >
>> > > Have I got it now?
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> We have a similar situation with showing errors or warnings, because showing 
>> them or not tends to be a function of multiple pieces of other information 
>> in `app-db`.
>>
>> If 'this', but 'that' in set 'so-and-so', then show a warning saying "You 
>> have duplicates on X".  And the values in 'this' 'that' and 'so-and-so' 
>> change over time.
>>
>> Going back to my abstract version of this involving 'a' 'b' 'c', our 
>> situation is that 'c' is some set of warnings which should be displayed to 
>> the user and 'a' & 'b' are the state which must be  analyzed in order to 
>> figure out if we have warnings.
>>
>>    (f a b) -> c
>>
>> So 'f' is some calculation on 'a' and 'b' to determine the value of our 
>> warning value 'c'.
>>
>> Our way of doing this is to run 'f' after every change.  We use the 'enrich' 
>> middleware and we put it on every handler which could effect the values of 
>> 'a' or 'b'  (we actually put it on every handler, just to be sure).
>>
>> So we don't even try to detect that 'a' or 'b' has changed. We just 
>> recalculate 'c' every single time.  And we do it so that if the new 'c' 
>> tests equal to the old 'c', it doesn't get assoc-ed into `app-db`.
>>
>> This approach collapses the problem to being almost trivial. BUT it comes at 
>> the cost of re-running 'f' re-compuation each time anything changes (via 
>> enrich).
>>
>> In our case, it has beautiful reduced a pretty tricky bit of dependency 
>> updating.
>
>
> Hmm. The penny has just dropped for me. A kind of "reverse reaction" is 
> possible via middleware.
>
> https://gist.github.com/mike-thompson-day8/76812d5452747bc79aac
>
> Seems so right.
>
> --
> Mike
>
>
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