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On Tuesday 19 November 2002 01:20, Jesse Kline wrote:
> This is true, but most of the time it is intentional (eg. the new
> RealPlayer). The problem on Linux is that there are so many different
> widget sets,
the result is analogous, just more noticeable since there is a greater
variety.
> and most people won't use apps of a single flavour for all
> their main apps.
with time i think this will change more and more... especially in corporate
environments. there are those pushing a hybrid desktop concept, but they all
seem to have particular agendas behind that rather than a good technical
reason for doing so.
> So you end up with an even more inconsitent look when your
> e-mail/web/drawing packages all look different.
not only is how they look irrelevant compared to how they behave, but mine
look exactly the same. and in most situations, they will. the whole "oh, but
most people are going to run apps from all over the place as opposed to
settle on one desktop solution or another" is complete crap. you watch: most
will. most aren't hackers, and most don't decide what they run.
why? savings: in support, in resource usage, in maintenance (less software to
update)...
laziness is also a factor: when a desktop env comes with everything you need,
why bother? yes, we aren't quite there yet for some specific cases. but that
is changing.
> Thank you I never knew about Geramik, but I think I am going to test it out
> on my home machine tonight.
=)
> > that want all their apps to look identical, great. but all the emphasis
> > on these unified themes is completely misguided IMO:
>
> I don't see a problem with this, why not port a theme instead of trying to
> reinvent the wheel?
you missed the point: function is more important than looks. GNOME's
reordering of the dialog buttons does far more damage to the user experience
for consistency than Red Hat's unified theme will ever make up for, as one
example.
it is how an application works that makes or breaks it for a user, not how the
scrollbars are rendered.
> That was what I was trying to get at, all the apps worked the same and that
> was the selling point. I don't find this to be too much of a problem on
> Linux since all modern GUI apps work with the same principals on any OS.
no, the problem is that configuration dialogs look different, menu layouts are
not the same, icons means different things, individual widgets like spinboxes
behave differently... THAT is the problem.
> Things like the Gnome interface guidlines will also help in this respect
> (at least for Gnome apps, but it's a start).
the GHIG is irrelevant outside of GNOME ATM. there is little interest to work
with KDE on it within the GNOME camp aside from one or two well-meaning
people involved with GHIG. which isn't surprising: KDE has had such documents
for years now. they could've just started working w/KDE and improving those
base documents to begin with. but they didn't: NIH is alive and well
apparently.
again, a common theme is simply whitewash over the grave.
> > least with each component looking slightly different, it's immediately
> > apparent to the user why things are different in the menus and dialogs:
> > they
> >
> > are different types of software!
>
> Ya, but your never going to get that. It's easier to port a theme and
> establish an interface standard than it is to port say the GIMP to
> QT/Motif/Wings/etc. just so people can use a consitent toolkit for their
> favourite apps.
a toolkit is far, far, far, far more than the way buttons are drawn. it is how
they act, react and interact. putting a common skin on things only serves to
throw more confusion on the fire without actually solving the problems.
this is a very sore point for me because i was ready to work with the GNOME
people on getting GHIG ready for KDE use (and then implementation) and there
were GNOME people ready to do the same, but then it was sabotaged by certain
GNOME developers. we could have achieved (in a year or two) the real
solution, instead we'll get stupid themes that do nothing but make the
situation worse.
i really don't care about the average hacker sitting at home happy how every
app is the same colour. i care about the corporate user and the average home
user who can't figure out WHY things as simple as buttons don't act the same.
that said, if you like the themes, great. i'm happy for you.
but it is most deffinitely not a solution for a unified GNOME/KDE/* desktop,
which is what Johnny said, and which is the popular conception among many
these days...
- --
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"
- Albert Einstein
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