Re: [clug-talk] no comment

Niels Voll Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:00:14 -0800

Thanks for clarifying, Cameron and a very happy 33rd birthday! - I envy your youth!

...Niels

Cameron Nikitiuk wrote:

I wasn't calling you scared.  I was saying FLODD users and supporters as a
whole, seem to have an inferiority complex and sometimes seem
unwilling/unable or just plain scared when it comes to standing up for what
they believe in.  I respect the way you think and the way you present your
arguements even if I don't agreee with them.  That is what choice is all
about....and choice is what FLOSS is all about.
I have been chaning a lot of my ways the last couple weeks and so I am
trying to change the way I think as well....maybe cause I am getting old or
something (33 today).
Keep fighting the fight Niels!

Cameron
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Niels Voll
Sent: February 28, 2004 12:08 AM
To: CLUG General
Subject: Re: [clug-talk] no comment
Sorry Cameron,
I have no idea where you got the idea that I was scared to invite
someone from City Hall, to meet them or listen to them. I'm not scared -
that's why I have come to embrace so much Open Source stuff.  As a
matter of fact, if a City IT manager was to give a CLUG talk, I would be
delighted to ask a few questions.
You may call me cynical, if you must, but not scared.

:)

...Niels

Cameron Nikitiuk wrote:

To adapt a phrase from the movie "What About Bob"

"Baby steps towards open source."

You have to start somewhere...especially when you are looking at

a heavily

bureaucratic entity like a municipal government. I think the IT people would love to do towards FLOSS, but like most organizations the

rubber stamp
from higher up must fall first.  I know that sounds like a contradiction
from what I said before, but....as much as I don't like the guy
and didn't
vote for him, he said he will reduce spending and try and make things run
more efficient.
Licensing fees are a great way to start reducing expenditures,
as is cheaper

more commodity hardware. Try not to forget you have a stink-load of spoon-fed by proprietary software end-users behind each of those computer terminals. And as much as we like FLOSS, there isn't a solid answer for everything Windows...and maybe there never will be for some things. the important thing to remember is that whether it is Windows or

Linux or GAIM

or MSN messenger, an individual or an organization has to weigh a lot of issues; find the best balance of resources and productivity in

the choices

they make and try and find the best tool for the job. With

governments...

they have the added fun of also being accountable (well...not federal Liberals...) with our money. I am finding a similar sort of

thing happening

in the company I work for. the embracing of FLOSS is small

right now...but

it has to start somewhere.

Maybe instead of criticizing the fact that they are only moving

.05% right

now towards FLOSS, we should be encouraging those choices by

contacting our

alderman, the mayor, the IT group and whoever else we can get in

touch with

and applaud that move and encourage them to move further. Perhaps making some contacts and passing a few copies of CLUGGIX to key players

might help.

And whets wrong with inviting those same people to a meeting.

Are we that

self-conscious, embarrassed and unprofessional that we can't present ourselves to government officials? Or be open to hear what they have to say? Why do we get so scared everytime Windows, Microsoft or other proprietary terms are used? Lets develop a firmer resolve...a stronger heart for what we believe in....to quote another movie..."Field

Of Dreams"
"If you build it, they will come!"
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Niels Voll
Sent: February 27, 2004 10:19 PM
To: CLUG General
Subject: Re: [clug-talk] no comment
Sorry guys, I'd love to share your enthusiasm and nominations for CLUG
presentations by City IT managers - but I don't think this is a
particularly big deal, and I think the City is still steering the
opposite way. Allow me to explain, why I think that.
Switching from AIX, Solaris, HP/UX or similar to Linux is a no-brainer
as far as I'm concerned. Heck, at my old company, we made that switch
back in 2000, so I wouldn't call this move by the City IT group
particularly breathtaking in its boldness or vision.
The credit for that goes to the price/performance advantage of Intel and
AMD based boxes over the RISC based boxes. It's really more of a
hardware switch than anything else. Wouldn't it be ironic if Linux is
just being used to wean some old Unix hands off their beloved command
prompt, and maybe even via KDE into accepting Windows? Ouch, wouldn't
that hurt !
I think the City of Calgary is still firmly in bed with MS. Just look at
the typical quote from their IT postings  - the following is from:
http://www.gov.calgary.ab.ca/hr/Postings/ccpcs004-IT04-5461.htm  :
<QUOTE>
The City of Calgary uses the following tools and technologies for client
server and web application development: Visual Basic 6.0 accessing
Oracle using ADO; N-Tier development using COM+; Web development using
ASP with VBScript (limited Javascript) running under IIS; Active Reports
for integrated reporting; Visual Source Safe for source code management;
PL/SQL for Oracle stored procedures and triggers; ESRI tools for GIS
development; Visio for data modeling and methodology deliverables; and
Project Analyzer and Mercury tools for ASQ. The City is transitioning
towards a VB.NET / ASP.NET environment.
</QUOTE>
Does anyone see any open source thinking in there whatsoever? Especially
the last sentence makes it abundantly clear, that their future is
getting more entrenched into MS technology, rather than even keeping
their options open with J2EE (Java), or at least some of the LAMP tools
as their strategic server side choices. And as far as I'm concerned,
using MS on the server is only imaginable, if you are having a die-hard
MS strategy on the desktop. I can't imagine even the City IT group can
cook up something as technically/strategically perverse as to run MS on
the server, and Linux on the desktop.
If someone doesn't even have the insight to prepare for running Linux on
the server, where it is really a no-brainer by now, you know exactly
which cool-aid is being served in the City of Calgary cafeteria!
</rant>
So sorry, but I don't even see strategic open mindedness, so no cheering

from this taxpayer.
...Niels

p.s. I'd love to be proved wrong by a senior City IT manager!

Cameron Nikitiuk wrote:

I gave a hearty "Holy Crap!" when I read City Of Calgary...

maybe Bronco has
whacked some sense into some people down there.  Not a big fan of the
guy...buy he has done some good stuff.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bogi
Sent: February 27, 2004 5:38 PM
To: CLUG General
Subject: Re: [clug-talk] no comment
Is it possible to get Dan Ryan to do a speech , lecture and
discussion forum
for/ with clug ???? At least he is in Calgary, Now He
definitely deserves
some honorary penguin belt . . .
Cheers
Szemir
On February 27, 2004 16:47, Pete wrote:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1093&e=1&u=/pcworl
d/2004022
7/tc_pcworld/115011

no comment

Peter
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