With regard to Installfest.... a few years back when I was first interested in "messing" around with Linux.. I had a spare machine so that it didn't really matter what happened to it.... I did attend a couple of times and really got no help from the "experts".... and my expectations were left behind in the room with them. I ended up shelving the linux project and reverted back to windows with which I found I could do the things I wanted and do the experimentation to learn how things functioned in a fraction of the time.... however linux was an itch that needed to be scratched some more so I joined the club as a paid member hoping that it would be a learning experience.... as it turned out... it wasn't.... for the most part the meetings were always late starting and had little structure..... tho I did gain some insight into some things from the presentation.... to me as a computer hobbyist it seemed the club was dedicated to those who were professional IT people.... and if you didn't know your ifconfig up from down people weren't really very helpful..... maybe the time of the computer hobbyist is past and maybe I am a dinosaur from days gone by. My hope was by joining the club that I would be able to have a place where I could ask questions and get answers..... as I was told by one member.... Google what you want to know.... well if you don't know what question to ask.... its kind of redundant.... maybe I should have "Bing'd it....oh that's right, Bing wasn't around then..... my experience with online searches is that you can find tons of material... prob is I would need the next millennia to sift thru it all to figure out what question to ask and then find the answer which is written in tech babble which is next in line to lawyer speak that you really are not sure you have an answer.... so you end up experimenting to figure it out... sometimes winning but most of the time losing and in the process wasting a ton of time and not really learning anything useful. Presently, I have 3 machines running 3 different distros and while from a security point of view, its not essential that they be locked down, I would like to know how to and the pros and cons of it and have it not take 3-4 years of trying things on my own to figure it out.... it is a hobby to me and I do have other things I like to do..... and tinkering with computers 24/7 is not in my game plan
AS far as the lack of interest in Installfest and in the club in general...there are lots of ways to promote it if the desire is there..... but it has to start with the club members making time to do it.... it is real easy to sit back and criticize others but unless you step up to the plate, your part of the problem and the 1st step is deciding on what the club really wants to be. Regards Gary -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kin Wong Sent: December 16, 2009 3:53 AM To: CLUG General Subject: Re: [clug-talk] Why is CLUG such a struggle? There were additional points that I wanted to cover but I am glad that you have. Your point on the simplicity of linux installation is certainly valid. I remember my initial struggles and now all that remains is the recognition of wireless adaptors to which I just either avoid or try until I find one that is recognized out of the bag. With regards to Installfest, what has bother me for the longest time is that the regular technical experts continue to show up to give of their time but they are generally not very busy. We typically only get a handful of people seeking help. What a disappointment and waste of time for our experts and something that could be easily solved with a few extra hands (no technical expertise required). A couple of years ago we had fresh face in the audience that inquired about Installfest. I asked him where he was from and how many people show up for their events. His answer was Mexico City and about 2-3 thousand. I'd be happy with 20-30 and estatic at 200-300. Sentiments are similar for COSSFEST, some top notch speakers and good content, lots of effort in planning but in the end a disappointing audience. There are a lot of good people out there that have given unselfishly of their time but the problem with a community is that if you only take what you need and don't contribute back, the community eventually withers and dies. These are just observations and opinions - I don't any answers. All I know is even good contributors can be distracted by real life and you can only tap people on the shoulder only so often before you become a burden and that compromises relationships. Regards, Kin Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -----Original Message----- From: Shawn <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:40:04 To: CLUG General<[email protected]> Subject: Re: [clug-talk] Why is CLUG such a struggle? It's been a few days since this thread was last commented on. Here's my take. Sorry, this turned out to be a little longer than I thought.... As someone who has been part of the group for 5+ years, I've noticed significant changes in the structure of the group over time. I've participated in some of those changes, and instigated some. The very reason for CLUG began to disappear about the same time Ubuntu came into existence. Linux got easy to install. Ubuntu, Red Hat, SuSE, Mandriva, etc all contributed to this. As did the countless developers scratching their "itch". CLUG began to loose focus as there became less of a need for help in getting things set up. Forgive me for using myself as an example, but I do feel this applies to all contributors.... I did my time as president, I took on COSSFEST, PROGSIG is still going, and I'm still involved as a member. But there does come a time where I think that someone else needs to step up and make things happen. I do have a life and a business that demands my attention elsewhere, often. I hit a wall occasionally where I ask myself why I bother with the effort if no one else is going to help out. Usually at these times, I step back and wait to see if the community/group will fill the gaps. In recent times, I've begun asking myself why I continue with CLUG. I'm not a novice user, and I can glean what I need from Google for most of the topics we cover. From a technical perspective, CLUG offers nothing for me anymore. There is the social aspects of hanging out with friends every month. But for a group like CLUG, that is not sufficient. I've noticed that the social conversations have begun to be "more important" than the executive member standing up front trying to carry on the meeting and do planning. These side conversations drown out anything else for those nearby and are generally very frustrating. Sure, some of the side conversations are on topic, but some are not and ALL can be done afterwards. That's my own opinion as a member in the crowd (and guilty of these infractions as well). Those who are standing at the front of the room are shown a fair amount of disrespect when this happens - IMO. So, why bother? I'm not trying to be condescending here. I'm trying to point out that the very nature of CLUG has shifted too far to the social side of things. And if that is the case, why do we even bother meeting at DeVry? Why not just move the meetings to the bar and drop the idea of "presentations"? Do we really need an executive at that point? Anyone visiting us sees this type of interaction and rarely come back. Something has to change, or CLUG becomes irrelevant. I don't have the answers for this problem. But do have some ideas. Drop the idea of catering to newbies. Nobody was there to hold my hand as I learned how to use OpenOffice, Inkscape, Thunderbird, etc. Instead I recall attending discussions on topics that were out of my comfort area, and I was expected to do a little research if the topic was of interest to me. I was expected to pay attention or get utterly lost. Instead, focus on topics that are of interest to US. For myself that would be things like making use of Linux for my business. Configuring an Apache server for virtual hosts, with support for various tools (Trac, Subversion, etc). Installing applications from scratch (compiling them), and how to get around the issues that come up in doing so under different distro's. Programming theory - using PHP at the command line, shell scripting with Python, understanding advanced data structures such as self balancing trees and meshes. etc. In short, do what is of interest to those of us who are still around, and drag the newbie kicking and screaming with us. There is time for the newbies to ask questions and receive mentoring afterwards in the Q&A portion. Or a workshop can be set up. Drop the presentations on "why I think distro X is better than distro B" - that doesn't need a presentation does it? That should be a quick 5 minute conversation - because ultimately that sort of thing comes down to an opinion. We should get back to a structured meeting. The people attending the meeting should be made to understand that they ARE attending the meeting. Side conversations should be moved outside, or put aside until after the meeting. The presenter should NOT have to manage the crowd. We are all adults, and professionals. We should act like it. (This goes for me too - I know I'm not a shining example here...) EVERYONE needs to contribute. I think that anyone attending the regular meetings should expect to be called on to stand up front and give a brief summary of what they've been working on, how they use Linux, etc. Right up to giving a full presentation. We can't rely on the usual group of people to step up to fill the dead air. Sooner or later, those folks will not be available. EVERYONE needs to be objectively critical of the whole structure of CLUG. The executive has to make choices. But making choices in a vacuum is non-ideal. I don't know how many times I've made choices for CLUG or PROGSIG with no input, and no idea if I was making the right choice. I had no option but to assume "no feedback is good". And that is a crappy approach. But, the corollary of the above is that we often MUST make a choice and move on. I've seen many times where we sit around talking about what we "could do", instead of just doing it. Once we make a choice, stick with it until there is clear reason to make a change. Changing things based on what "might" happen in some non-deterministic point in the future is well, stupid and reacting to fear. We need to have the courage to make a choice and stick to it. My apologies for the "rant", but these are things that go through my head when I think critically of CLUG. I feel CLUG still has a place, but not the way it is set up at the moment. Things need to change. A focus needs to be decided. Something more firm that "promote Linux and Open Source". WHY do that? HOW to do that, etc. That should be part of the focus. And that focus dictates all other actions. Either that or we just have a social club for computer geeks. My thoughts, not yours. Shawn [email protected] wrote: > Always good to here from you Jesse and even more enjoyable to hear such > a diverse point of view. > > I don't think there is a simple answer to the question otherwise it > would be so simple to resolve, any idiot would have resolve the problem > already. Here is my two cents, i think it is more human nature than > anything else - we don't scratch unless we itch. First we need to > recognize the itch and then decide whether we can tolerate it or need to > stop and scratch it. If we do decide to scratch it, how many of us > actually take further steps to do more than satisfy their own itch. > > I remember the first snow fall this year early in the morning, no > sanding trucks in sight. On an off ramp from University Drive to 16th > Avenue was a pile of vehicles trying to ascend the ramp. Don't know if > it was stupidity or a surge of testosterone (not sure if there is a > difference), I thought I could succeed where others failed and got stuck > myself. A couple of SAIT students aided in pushing me up the ramp. > After I got to the top, I pulled over and spent the next couple of hours > working with the guys pushing vehicles up the ramp until my hands froze > from not wearing gloves. Of the people we helped, I am sure most of > them were grateful we were there, some thanked us verbally but I don't > recall any that got out to repay the kindness. > > This is just an observation, but the situation is similar to CLUG. The > list has been down for some time now, but look who were the people that > first responded, not people that typically need help but people who > recognized the itch, did something for themselves and more importantly > are continually doing something for others. Much of that comes equally > from passion and wanting to create a community as these individuals > certainly give in magnitude over what they receive. > > In the brief history of CLUG that I am aware of, there are individuals > that are not among those that have responded yet but they would have > been the first in their own time. Unfortunately there have been many > leaders (by their action, not their position) from our past that have > done more than scratch their itch, but other obligations eventually take > over. > > Solutions are never simple and will be varied but there will be > similarities in the fundamentals. It will take everyone to do a bit > more than just scratch their own itch. It will take more than coming up > with action plans or wish lists as to what we can do - it will take > individuals to step up with vision, personal commitment and energy in > equal measure. > > Lastly, my hats off to those leaders (by their action, not their > position) both past and present that have scratched more than their own > itch. > > Regards, > > Kin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > clug-talk mailing list > [email protected] > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) > **Please remove these lines when replying _______________________________________________ clug-talk mailing list [email protected] http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) **Please remove these lines when replying _______________________________________________ clug-talk mailing list [email protected] http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) **Please remove these lines when replying _______________________________________________ clug-talk mailing list [email protected] http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) **Please remove these lines when replying
