Nice summary Riley! Wade C&C 39 LF On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 18:50 Riley Anderson via CnC-List < [email protected]> wrote:
> Stiffness in yacht design refers to the vessel's ability to resist heel. > Whether that arises from weight stability (deep draft ballast, e.g. C&C30) > or from form stability (flat and wide hull shape, e.g. Jeanneau 50) is > irrelevant in the true definition of stability. > > But in terms of how the boat feels... > If you plot the stability curves (x = heel angle °, y = righting moment) > of both vessels, the C&C30 will have a gradual initial slope. The J50DS > would have a very steep initial slope. So the J50DS resists heel initially > because of its raft-like hull shape...it "feels" stiff. After about 20° > heel, it really gets sloppy. The C&C30 on the otherhand will have almost > constant resistance to heel until about 60-80°. > > The C&C30, from a stability standpoint is the safer vessel. However, > displacement matters A LOT in sea way. Light vessels get much more unruly. > That's not to say heavier is safer. But you will "feel" more in control. > > > Riley Anderson > Freight Train, C&C 38-2 > North Cove > Old Saybrook, CT USA > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 7:28 PM Jim Watts via CnC-List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Stiff to me is the ability to stand up under sail and it depends on its >> design and construction. Strong will ideally be part of the equation. >> Our C&C 29-2 was a more tender boat than our 35. A stiff boat isn't >> necessarily a fast boat; we could sail rings around a C&C30-1 in our 29, >> but we did it at ten degrees more heel. *Yacht Design According to >> Perry *or Steve Killing's *Yacht Design Explained* are both very >> informative reads. >> >> Jim Watts >> Paradigm Shift >> C&C 35 Mk III >> Victoria, BC >> >> >> On Fri, 26 Sept 2025 at 15:29, David Knecht via CnC-List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi John and John- Looks like another C&C Rendezvous like the old days >>> when Edd Shillay was around. I will be at Ft Rachel again this year, >>> sometime in November, so it would be fun to hook up. I have a friend at >>> TYC who is looking for a Freedom after Crockers wrecked his Freedom >>> dropping it off a lift. Not sure which one he had (35 I think), but one >>> thing I didn't like on his was the club footed jib that he had to go >>> forward to put away. That looked like a PITA in rough conditions. I >>> suspect some Freedom's have a different rig. I certainly think a self >>> tacking is something to consider to make handling the boat easier, but I >>> was thinking more like the Hanse track self-tacker or Sabre Spirit that you >>> can furl. Not sure what the plus/minus of a jib boom vs. the Hanse track. >>> Also, his Freedom was a relatively slow boat. I don't know if that was him >>> or the boat. Not sure how that relates to your dad's Bermuda 1-2 (WOW) >>> experience. >>> >>> BUT- can someone please define STIFF for me in this context. I don't >>> even know if it is the right term for what I am thinking about because I >>> have never seen it defined. I could Google it, but I would rather hear >>> from sailors what you think it means. Is it literally how strong the boat >>> is, or is it more about its ability to handle difficult conditions well. >>> Those seem to me to be different design challenges. >>> >>> David Knecht >>> Emeritus Rear Commodore/Thames Yacht Club >>> Emeritus Professor/University of Connecticut >>> Basketball Capital of the World >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 26, 2025, at 4:44 PM, John Read via CnC-List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> David. Will you haul at Fort Rachel again? The Jenny 44 will as well. >>> Mccrea and I will.as well. John Read >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 4:08 PM John McCrea via CnC-List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> My dad is 86 and has 100k on his Freedom 32. Raced singlehanded to >>>> Bermuda 15 times in a row and did the Atlantic circle in it. My mom has not >>>> been on the boat in over a decade, but he still sailed it all over Maine >>>> singlehanded each year (including this one)The 40 is also a great boat. >>>> They also made the Legacy powerboats, and they are pretty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Friends here in Mystic just bought a 2021 Jenny 44. It has power and is >>>> as stiff as nails. Since you are local, I can connect you if you want. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> John McCrea >>>> >>>> Talisman >>>> >>>> 1979 36-1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Don Kern via CnC-List <[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2025 3:50 PM >>>> *To:* David Knecht via CnC-List <[email protected]> >>>> *Cc:* Don Kern <[email protected]> >>>> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Is there a new boat in my future? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David, >>>> >>>> If you are no longer racing, have you considered a Freedom. One of my >>>> racing crew has a Freedom 38. This summer he and his wife (both late 60s) >>>> cruised from Bristol, RI to the coast of Maine, all the way to Bar Harbor >>>> (Acadia). They only dropped one day of sailing by staying in port due >>>> inclement weather (drizzle & fog). >>>> >>>> I have avoided sailing on his boat, because my wife would want to come >>>> along. That would be a disaster for me since I am still racing my boat. >>>> I'm in my early 80s, sail as the helmsman and try to avoid >>>> grinding/tailing. That's for the racing crew, all over 55. I do cruise >>>> with wife, flying just my only roller furl sail (135%). >>>> >>>> Don Kern >>>> *Fireball*, C&C 35 Mk2 >>>> Bristol, RI >>>> >>>> On 9/26/2025 1:14 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote: >>>> >>>> I have had my C&C 34/36 WK for 12 years and I love the boat. I race it >>>> frequently single or double handed and cruise with my wife for a week or >>>> two every summer. But at 72 and not getting any stronger, I am starting to >>>> think about my next/last boat. Perhaps I need to be talked down by more >>>> experienced sailors because this issue was precipitated by our last >>>> cruise. I am by nature and experience a dinghy sailor and only came to >>>> keel boats late in life, so I have limited experience on different keel >>>> boats aside from mine and Caribbean charters. I don't have much of a sense >>>> of how different designs and sizes of boats perform in challenging >>>> conditions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Last week, my wife and I cruised from New London to Cape Cod and back. >>>> On the first day it was blowing 15+ from the east (so upwind route) when we >>>> left and I had a 110 genoa and a single reef in the main. All was well >>>> until we left Fishers Island Sound (relatively protected and calm) and >>>> entered Block Island Sound (essentially the Atlantic-chop and large waves). >>>> First the main reefing line broke and I was able to stow the main so we >>>> sailed the rest of the way with just the 110 genoa. It was rough enough >>>> for my wife to get seasick, but the boat was doing 6+ knots close hauled, >>>> so no big problem. However, the thought I kept having was that it was >>>> "only" blowing 18 knots true. If it had been 20-30 knots it would have >>>> been much worse and much more difficult to control the boat single handed >>>> and no way to further depower. We ended up motoring part way, but that was >>>> no fun either. I have never tried furling the 110 partially and it >>>> certainly is not designed with that in mind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thinking about this experience afterwards I was reminded of a charter >>>> we did in the Caribbean on a Jeanneau 50DS years ago. I was sailing the >>>> boat myself in nearly 30 knots of wind with main and genoa under total >>>> control, healing a bit, and having a great time. The water was not rough, >>>> but I was confident I could sail that boat in much stronger winds and waves >>>> and be fine. I had never really understood the concept of a "stiff boat" >>>> but I presume this is what it means. The Jeanneau was a stiff boat and >>>> mine was not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On the return trip, it was all downwind and I had just the main up, and >>>> it was supposed to blow 10-12 but by the time we hit Block Island Sound it >>>> was blowing 20-30 with large following seas. It was a real challenge to >>>> steer the boat in those conditions and I was running on fumes from hand >>>> steering for hours by the time we hit Block Island. I didn't think the >>>> wheel pilot was going to be able to handle it and never tried. I don't >>>> know if any type of boat/keel/rig makes that situation easier to handle. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Obviously the 34+ was designed to have 4-6 people on the rail for >>>> ballast and sailing it single handed is going to have some compromises. Up >>>> to 15 knots, it is no problem, but as it approaches 20, things get more >>>> challenging. So I am thinking that I might need to start looking for a >>>> different boat for the future. Something stiffer (is that the right term?) >>>> so I don't have to be concerned about going out when it is blowing 20-30 >>>> (beyond that I just won't go out by choice). But I am unclear on what >>>> characteristics to look for. Is it mostly sail area/displacement ratio >>>> that determines this? Is it possible to have good performance in various >>>> conditions and not be overpowered in 20-30 knots? How much of a factor is >>>> size or design? Can a boat be "stiff" and reasonably fast in a variety of >>>> conditions? I still want to race and PHRF should compensate somewhat for >>>> performance, but in my experience, "slow" boats lose to "fast" boats in >>>> PHRF racing. Perhaps that is just the price I will have to pay. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I would love to hear the thoughts of the group on any aspect of >>>> this issue. Thanks- Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David Knecht >>>> >>>> S/V Aries >>>> >>>> 1990 C&C 34+ >>>> >>>> New London, CT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to >>>> keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>>> greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>>> greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>> greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >>> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >>> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >>> greatly appreciated. >> >> Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help >> to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal >> at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are >> greatly appreciated. > > Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to > keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal > at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are > greatly appreciated.
Your contributions help pay the fees associated with this list and help to keep it active. Please help by making a small contribution using PayPal at: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/stumurray All contributions are greatly appreciated.
