Good words Andrew.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: >> >> >> After just a few hours of poking around I have decided that it will be >> much simpler for me to simply hand-code a whole hat-full of servlets >> than to try and pull any meaning out of Cocoon and it's documentation. >> Fifteen hours on the Interstate wasn't as challenging as trying to >> figure out how one should check a Web Form this month but I didn't >> have that feeling of travelling backwards half of the time. I was also >> able to predict and achieve forward progress (for a change). >> >> > I hope you had a nice trip. Web Form stuff is a bit beta at the moment, > so you'll need to > excercise patience and a willingness to help. > >> Thanks guys, but no thanks. >> >> Maybe I'm getting old, but I really don't understand the need for all >> of the complexity and the lack of documentation in this product. >> >> > Perhaps its not a product at all, maybe its a software development > community and a project all > wrapped up into one. > >> On the other hand, I used to feel the same way about the mind-numbing >> complexity of a certain thirty-year-old mainframe operating system >> (MVS) produced by IBM back in the sixties and it's patching system >> (SMP4). So it can't just be my age. >> Anyway, Cocoon has cost me far morte (a typo that's better than the > > You seem lively to me. > >> original word) time than it was worth. The chief problems appear to >> have been endlessly re-invented terminology for an overwhelming number >> of 'new concepts' and a complete lack of consistency between different >> components (i.e. functional code, non-functional examples, unbuildable >> documentation and a website that doesn't match up with any single >> released version of the project). >> >> > So did you fix them? Did you raise these points and offer to help? > >> I have a lot of respect for the ability of the people who have built >> this project, but I want them to know that their project appears to be >> out-of-control and could become very difficult to manage. If >> experienced developers (like myself) can't figure out how to use >> enough features in the product to make it worth using, then >> penetration will be limited and all of your efforts will be wasted. >> There is more to this business than stuffing in features at the >> expense of documentation and testing. You have a lot of very good >> ideas, but the execution of the project as a whole seems to be suffering. >> >> > I'm significantly less experienced and I figured a large amount of it out. > > You: "Oh I can't figure it out I'm leaving" > > Me: "How do I....?" "What is a....?" And I'm working on creating an > example webapp > (http://www.superlinksoftware.com/cocoon/samples/bringmethis/index.html) > that utilizes > forms, etc. I'll accompany it (NOT RIGHT AWAY) with explanations and > documentation > (written in plain English). > >> I know that I will often look at my JSP and servlet code and think >> 'XSP and Cocoon were sooo much better!' until I remember that I wasn't >> ever able to use enough of Cocoon to make a profit. >> > > I run Cocoon in fairly low amount of memory. Certainly more than JSP > and a Servlet, but then again > when I load the Connection pooling, caching, and other services a > serious JSP application would require, > I'm not so sure it comes that far ahead > > While I agree with many of your criticisms, especially the Avalonian > (language of the Avalon-> > Cocoon developers) and lack of meaningful documentation, I adamntly > believe that the problem here > lies within you. > This is participatory software. You didn't pay for it. You don't get > to call up Microsoft support and > scream at them and wonder why they come back at you 2 weeks later with > the wrong answer and > "wait for service pack 2 for a fix". You fix it. If you're lucky, you > fix it in collaboration with others! > > Next, as I get older I get more patient. I'd hate to see how impatient > you were at my age or Wow. > There are MULTIPLE books coming out on Cocoon, some by its very > developers others by great > folks like Conrad D'Cruz. In the next few months, such things will be > clearer. > > Personally, I think if you have this attitude "If I can't figure it out > it must suck and I'll take my cookies and > go home" then I think you're contributing to this software development > community in the best possible > way you ever could.....leaving it before you break something. If you're > perhaps new to opensource > community-based development, maybe you should ask for help and take some > more time to read up on the > subject. You'll find if you expend the effort, folks can be downright > friendly and helpful. Of course > its up to you. And psychological theory indicates you'll read this and > disregard it. So I'm more writing it > for the next person that comes along. Hope this helps! > > -Andy > >> Oh, well, at least all of my test systems have bags of memory now! >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the >> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> >> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > -- -= Ivelin =- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
