Actually, a lot of our customers are still on JDK6, so if anything, its popularity hasn't significantly decreased. We still test and support JDK6 for CDH4 and CDH5. The claim that branch-2 is effectively JDK7 because no one supports JDK6 is untrue.
One issue with your proposal is that java 7+ libraries can have incompatible APIs compared to their java 6 versions. Guava moves very quickly with regard to the deprecate+remove cycle. This means branch-2 and trunk divergence, as we're stuck using different Guava APIs to do the same thing. No one's arguing against moving to Java 7+ in trunk eventually, but there isn't a clear plan for a trunk-based release. I don't see any point to switching trunk over until that's true, for the aforementioned reasons. Best, Andrew On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Steve Loughran <ste...@hortonworks.com> wrote: > I also think we need to recognise that its been three months since that > last discussion, and Java 6 has not suddenly burst back into popularity > > > - nobody providing commercial support for Hadoop is offering branch-2 > support on Java 6 AFAIK > - therefore, nobody is testing it at scale except privately, and they > aren't reporting bugs if they are > - if someone actually did file a bug on something on branch-2 which > didn't work on Java 6 but went away on Java7+, we'd probably close it > as a > WORKSFORME > > > whether we acknowledge it or not, Hadoop 2.x is now really Java 7+. > > We do all agree that hadoop 3 will not be java 6, so the only issue is > "when and how to make that transition". > > That patch of mine just makes it possible to do today. > > I have actually jumped to Java7 in the slider project, and actually being > using Java 8 and twill; the new language features there are significant and > would be great to use in Hadoop *at some point in the future* > > For Java 7 though, based on that experience, the language changes are > convenient but not essential > > - try-with-resources simply swallows close failures without the log > integration we have with IOUtils.closeStream(), so shoudn't be used in > hadoop core anyway. > - string based switching: convenient, but not critical > - type inference on template constructors. Modern IDEs handle the pain > anyway > > The only feature I like is multi-catch and typed rethrow > > catch(IOException | ExitException e) { > log.warn(e.toString(); > throw e; > } > > this would make "e" look like Exception, but when rethrown go back to its > original type. > > This reduces duplicate work, and is the bit l actually value. Is it enough > to justify making code incompatible across branches? No. > > So i'm going to propose this, and would like to start a vote on it soon > > > 1. we parameterize java versions in the POMs on all branches, with > separate JDK versions and Java language > 2. branch-2: java-6-language and JDK-6 minimum JDK > 3. trunk: java-6-language and JDK-7 minimum JDK > > This would guarantee that none of the java 7 language features went in, but > we could move trunk up to java 7+ only libraries (jersey, guava). Adopting > JDK7 features then becomes no more different from adopting java7+ > libraries: those bits of code that have moved can't be backported. > > -Steve > > > > > > On 17 June 2014 22:08, Andrew Wang <andrew.w...@cloudera.com> wrote: > > > Reviving this thread, I noticed there's been a patch and +1 on > > HADOOP-10530, and I don't think we actually reached a conclusion. > > > > I (and others) have expressed concerns about moving to JDK7 for trunk. > > Summarizing a few points: > > > > - We can't move to JDK7 in branch-2 because of compatibility > > - branch-2 is currently the only Hadoop release vehicle, there are no > plans > > for a trunk-based Hadoop 3 > > - Introducing JDK7-only APIs in trunk will increase divergence with > > branch-2 and make backports harder > > - Almost all developers care only about branch-2, since it is the only > > release vehicle > > > > With this in mind, I struggle to see any upsides to introducing JDK7-only > > APIs to trunk. Please let's not do anything on HADOOP-10530 or related > > until we agree on this. > > > > Thanks, > > Andrew > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Steve Loughran <ste...@hortonworks.com> > > wrote: > > > > > On 14 April 2014 17:46, Andrew Purtell <apurt...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > How well is trunk tested? Does anyone deploy it with real > applications > > > > running on top? When will the trunk codebase next be the basis for a > > > > production release? An impromptu diff of hadoop-common trunk against > > > > branch-2 as of today is 38,625 lines. Can they be said to be the same > > > > animal? I ask because any disincentive toward putting code in trunk > is > > > > beside the point, if the only target worth pursuing today is branch-2 > > > > unless one doesn't care if the code is released for production use. > > > > Questions on whither JDK6 or JDK7+ (or JRE6 versus JRE7+) only matter > > for > > > > the vast majority of Hadoopers if talking about branch-2. > > > > > > > > > > > I think its partly a timescale issue; its also because the 1-2 > transition > > > was so significant, especially at the YARN layer, that it's still > taking > > > time to trickle through. > > > > > > If you do want code to ship this year, branch-2 is where you are going > to > > > try and get it in -and like you say, that's where things get tried in > the > > > field. At the same time, the constraints of stability are holding us > back > > > -already-. > > > > > > I don't see why we should have such another major 1-2 transition in > > future; > > > the rate that Arun is pushing out 2.x releases its almost back to the > > 0.1x > > > timescale -though at that point most people were fending for themselves > > and > > > expectations of stability were less. We do want smaller version > > increments > > > in future, which branch-2 is -mostly- delivering. > > > > > > While Java 7 doesn't have some must-have features, Java 8 is a > > significant > > > improvement in the language, and we should be looking ahead to that, > > maybe > > > even doing some leading-edge work on the side, so the same discussion > > > doesn't come up in two years time when java 7 goes EOL. > > > > > > > > > -steve > > > > > > (personal opinions only, etc, ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Colin McCabe < > cmcc...@alumni.cmu.edu > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think the bottom line here is that as long as our stable release > > > > > uses JDK6, there is going to be a very, very strong disincentive to > > > > > put any code which can't run on JDK6 into trunk. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said earlier, the traditional reason for putting something > in > > > > > trunk but not the stable release is that it needs more testing. > If a > > > > > stable release that drops support for JDK6 is more than a year > away, > > > > > does it make sense to put anything in trunk like that? What might > > > > > need more than a year of testing? Certainly not changes to > > > > > LocalFileSystem to use the new APIs. I also don't think an upgrade > > to > > > > > various libraries qualifies. > > > > > > > > > > It might be best to shelve this for now, like we've done in the > past, > > > > > until we're ready to talk about a stable release that requires > JDK7+. > > > > > At least that's my feeling. > > > > > > > > > > If we're really desperate for the new file APIs JDK7 provides, we > > > > > could consider using loadable modules for it in branch-2. This is > > > > > similar to how we provide JNI versions of certain things on certain > > > > > platforms, without dropping support for the other platforms. > > > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Raymie Stata < > rst...@altiscale.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > There's an outstanding question addressed to me: "Are there > > > particular > > > > > > features or new dependencies that you would like to contribute > (or > > > see > > > > > > contributed) that require using the Java 1.7 APIs?" The question > > > > > > misses the point: We'd figure out how to write something we > wanted > > to > > > > > > contribute to Hadoop against the APIs of Java4 if that's what it > > took > > > > > > to get them into a stable release. And at current course and > > speed, > > > > > > that's how ridiculous things could get. > > > > > > > > > > > > To summarize, it seems like there's a vague consensus that it > might > > > be > > > > > > okay to eventually allow the use of Java7 in trunk, but there's > no > > > > > > decision. And there's been no answer to the concern that even if > > > such > > > > > > dependencies were allowed in Java7, the only people using them > > would > > > > > > be people who uninterested in getting their patches into a stable > > > > > > release of Hadoop on any knowable timeframe, which doesn't bode > > well > > > > > > for the ability to stabilize that Java7 code when it comes time > to > > > > > > attempt to. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have more to add, so I'll go back to lurking. It'll be > > > > > > interesting to see where we'll be standing a year from now. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 2:09 AM, Tsuyoshi OZAWA > > > > > > <ozawa.tsuyo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> +1 for Karthik's idea(non-binding). > > > > > >> > > > > > >> IMO, we should keep the compatibility between JDK 6 and JDK 7 on > > > both > > > > > branch-1 > > > > > >> and branch-2, because users can be using them. For future > releases > > > > that > > > > > we can > > > > > >> declare breaking compatibility(e.g. 3.0.0 release), we can use > > JDK 7 > > > > > >> features if we > > > > > >> can get benefits. However, it can increase maintenance costs and > > > > > distributes the > > > > > >> efforts of contributions to maintain branches. Then, I think it > is > > > > > >> reasonable approach > > > > > >> that we use limited and minimum JDK-7 APIs when we have reasons > we > > > > need > > > > > to use > > > > > >> the features. > > > > > >> By the way, if we start to use JDK 7 APIs, we should declare the > > > basis > > > > > >> when to use > > > > > >> JDK 7 APIs on Wiki not to confuse contributors. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > >> - Tsuyoshi > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Raymie Stata < > > rst...@altiscale.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>> It might make sense to try to enumerate the benefits of > > switching > > > to > > > > > >>>> Java7 APIs and dependencies. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> - Java7 introduced a huge number of language, byte-code, API, > > and > > > > > >>> tooling enhancements! Just to name a few: try-with-resources, > > > newer > > > > > >>> and stronger encyrption methods, more scalable concurrency > > > > primitives. > > > > > >>> See http://www.slideshare.net/boulderjug/55-things-in-java-7 > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> - We can't update current dependencies, and we can't add cool > > new > > > > > ones. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> - Putting language/APIs aside, don't forget that a huge > amount > > of > > > > > effort > > > > > >>> goes into qualifying for Java6 (at least, I hope the folks > > claiming > > > > to > > > > > >>> support Java6 are putting in such an effort :-). Wouldn't > Hadoop > > > > > >>> users/customers be better served if qualification effort went > > into > > > > > >>> Java7/8 versus Java6/7? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Getting to Java7 as a development env (and Java8 as a runtime > > env) > > > > > >>> seems like a no-brainer. Question is: How? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Sandy Ryza < > > > sandy.r...@cloudera.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>> It might make sense to try to enumerate the benefits of > > switching > > > to > > > > > Java7 > > > > > >>>> APIs and dependencies. IMO, the ones listed so far on this > > thread > > > > > don't > > > > > >>>> make a compelling enough case to drop Java6 in branch-2 on any > > > time > > > > > frame, > > > > > >>>> even if this means supporting Java6 through 2015. For > example, > > > the > > > > > change > > > > > >>>> in RawLocalFileSystem semantics might be an incompatible > change > > > for > > > > > >>>> branch-2 any way. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Karthik Kambatla < > > > > ka...@cloudera.com > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>>> +1 to NOT breaking compatibility in branch-2. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> I think it is reasonable to require JDK7 for trunk, if we > limit > > > use > > > > > of > > > > > >>>>> JDK7-only API to security fixes etc. If we make other > > > optimizations > > > > > (like > > > > > >>>>> IO), it would be a pain to backport things to branch-2. I > guess > > > > this > > > > > all > > > > > >>>>> depends on when we see ourselves shipping Hadoop-3. Any ideas > > on > > > > > that? > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Eli Collins < > e...@cloudera.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Ottenheimer, Davi > > > > > >>>>> > <davi.ottenhei...@emc.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > >> From: Eli Collins [mailto:e...@cloudera.com] > > > > > >>>>> > >> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 11:54 AM > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > >>>>> > >> IMO we should not drop support for Java 6 in a minor > > update > > > > of a > > > > > >>>>> stable > > > > > >>>>> > >> release (v2). I don't think the larger Hadoop user base > > > would > > > > > find it > > > > > >>>>> > >> acceptable that upgrading to a minor update caused their > > > > > systems to > > > > > >>>>> stop > > > > > >>>>> > >> working because they didn't upgrade Java. There are > people > > > > still > > > > > >>>>> getting > > > > > >>>>> > >> support for Java 6. ... > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > >>>>> > >> Thanks, > > > > > >>>>> > >> Eli > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > Hi Eli, > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > Technically you are correct those with extended support > get > > > > > critical > > > > > >>>>> > security fixes for 6 until the end of 2016. I am curious > > > whether > > > > > many of > > > > > >>>>> > those are in the Hadoop user base. Do you know? My guess is > > the > > > > > vast > > > > > >>>>> > majority are within Oracle's official public end of life, > > which > > > > > was over > > > > > >>>>> 12 > > > > > >>>>> > months ago. Even Premier support ended Dec 2013: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > The end of Java 6 support carries much risk. It has to be > > > > > considered in > > > > > >>>>> > terms of serious security vulnerabilities such as > > CVE-2013-2465 > > > > > with CVSS > > > > > >>>>> > score 10.0. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2013-2465/ > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > Since you mentioned "caused systems to stop" as an > example > > of > > > > > what > > > > > >>>>> would > > > > > >>>>> > be a concern to Hadoop users, please note the CVE-2013-2465 > > > > > availability > > > > > >>>>> > impact: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > "Complete (There is a total shutdown of the affected > > > resource. > > > > > The > > > > > >>>>> > attacker can render the resource completely unavailable.)" > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > This vulnerability was patched in Java 6 Update 51, but > > post > > > > end > > > > > of > > > > > >>>>> > life. Apple pushed out the update specifically because of > > this > > > > > >>>>> > vulnerability (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5717) as did > > some > > > > > other > > > > > >>>>> > vendors privately, but for the majority of people using > Java > > 6 > > > > > means they > > > > > >>>>> > have a ticking time bomb. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > Allowing it to stay should be considered in terms of > > > accepting > > > > > the > > > > > >>>>> whole > > > > > >>>>> > risk posture. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > There are some who get extended support, but I suspect many > > > just > > > > > have > > > > > >>>>> > a if-it's-not-broke mentality when it comes to production > > > > > deployments. > > > > > >>>>> > The current code supports both java6 and java7 and so > allows > > > > these > > > > > >>>>> > people to remain compatible, while enabling others to > upgrade > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >>>>> > java7 runtime. This seems like the right compromise for a > > > stable > > > > > >>>>> > release series. Again, absolutely makes sense for trunk (ie > > v3) > > > > to > > > > > >>>>> > require java7 or greater. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> - Tsuyoshi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > - Andy > > > > > > > > Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet > > Hein > > > > (via Tom White) > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > > NOTICE: This message is intended for the use of the individual or > entity > > to > > > which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, > > > privileged and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. 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