Hi Jordi,

On 27/07/2021 22:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote:
> This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the 
> other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).
> 
> The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it 
> had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
> "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published 
> now.
> 
> So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance 
> on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points.

it seems 4 minutes earlier I suggested same to Owen.

> Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in 
> the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
> the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the 
> results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were 
> incorporated during all the process: transparency.

I don't know whether or not (under the Mauritius legal system) the
information/documents will become public.
I certainly would like to have AfriNIC ask the courts to consider them.
I was hoping that was clear from my previous emails.


Frank



> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>  
>  
> 
> El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht" <[email protected]> escribió:
> 
>     Hi Owen,
> 
>     On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
>     >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht <[email protected]> wrote:
>     >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
>     >>> countries combined. What is your point?
>     >>
>     >> "serves" ...?
>     > Yes.>> with connectivity?
>     > 
>     > In some cases.
> 
>     I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
>     seen any yet.
> 
> 
>     >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
>     >> another place.
>     > 
>     > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address 
> management
>     > independent of connectivity.
> 
>     "variety of services"
>     So my first thought was to press <shift> and the key between v and n
>     and then <shift> and the key between a and d
> 
>     gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
>     understood : BS - bullshit!
> 
> 
>     "IP address management"
>     putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
>     reverse DNS delegations?
>      [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
>     Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?
> 
> 
>     >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
>     >>
>     >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
>     >> 2. we are investing in africa.
>     > 
>     > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.
> 
>     No doubt.
>     Lawyers in Mauritius.
> 
> 
>     > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.
> 
>     Agree.
>     Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
>     I maintain this:
>     - I have no idea how it was justified.
>     - I have no right to see this justification.
>     - I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
>     - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.
> 
>     > At the time the statement was made, it was true.
> 
>     I do currently believe that.
> 
>     > Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC 
> are being used in Africa” would be more accurate.
> 
>     I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
>     "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
>     Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from
>     AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?
> 
> 
>     >> which is a quote from
>     >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
>     > 
>     > Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.
> 
>     And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time.
>     Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.
> 
> 
>     >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
>     >> *was*
>     >> when it was true.
>     > 
>     > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:
>     > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and 
> our customers networks.
> 
>     "own network" ?
>     I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to
>     ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog)
> 
>     "customers networks."
>     "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity.
>     [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the
>       guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.]
> 
>     but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses.
>     which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the
>     first place??? I beg to doubt!!!
> 
>     And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC
>     interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the
>     community.
> 
>     > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no 
> basis in current policy to deny it and
>     > it remains a true statement to this day.
> 
>     If
>     it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's
>     "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of
>     the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting
>     BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being
>     stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the
>     time by AfriNIC,
>     then
>     I rest my case.
> 
> 
>     Frank
> 
>     PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal".
> 
>     [1]
>     "these IPs":
>     2x /11 and 2x /12
> 
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