2009/8/13 Stefan Kaitschick <[email protected]> > Modeling the opponents mistakes is indeed an alternative to introducing > komi. > But it would have to be a lot more exact than simply rolling the dice or > skipping a move here and there. > Successful opponent modeling would implement the overplay school of thought > - playing tactically refutable > combinations that are beyond the opponents skill to punish them. >
I cannot believe you are being so technically precise about doing this correctly while advocating something on the other hand which is so obviously incorrect. You probably have something here though. I think the play-out policy is a more fruitful area to explore than dynamically changing komi. I would start simple, just trying the simplest approach first then gradually refining it. Random occasional pass moves is certainly easy to implement as a first step. - Don > Introducing komi at the 50% win rate level would implement the honte school > of thought - play as if against yourself. > At a win rate of less than 50% it implements the "almost honte" school of > thought. :-) > I'm not trying to moralize. In love and go anything is fair. > I'm just saying that while both approaches are legitimate, adjusting the > komi is much easier to do. > > Different subject, suggestion for a komi adjustment scheme: > > 1. Make a regular evaluation(no extra komi) > 2. If the win rate of the best move is within certain bounds you're done > (Say between 30 and 70 percent.Just a guess ofcourse.Also, this might shift > as the game progresses) > 3. If not, make a komi adjustment dependant on how far out of bounds the > win rate is. > (No numerical suggestion here. Please experiment.) > 4. Make a new search with this komi. > 5. If the new result is "in bounds" calculate winrate_nokomi * factor + > winrate_komi for each candidate and choose the highest one. > (factor around 10 maybe) > 6. If not, go back to 3 > > > The idea is to choose a move that doesnt contradict the long term goal(no > komi search) while trying for a short term goal(komi search) > if no long term goal is available.( Or if every move satisfies the long > term goal in case of taking handicap) > > > Stefan > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Don Dailey <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] ; computer-go <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 13, 2009 4:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [computer-go] Dynamic komi at high handicaps > > This idea makes much more sense to me than adjusting komi does. At least > it's an attempt at opponent modeling, which is the actual problem that > should be addressed. Whether it will actually work is something that > could be tested. > > Another similar idea is not to pass but to play some percentage of random > moves - which probably would work in programs with strong playout > strategies. Of course this would be meaningless for bots that have weak > (and already random) playout strategies. > > - Don > > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 6:17 AM, Tapani Raiko <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I don't think the komi should be adjusted. >> >> Instead: >> >> Wouldn't random passing by black during the playouts model black making >> mistakes much more accurately? The number of random passes should be >> adjusted such that the playouts are close to 50/50. Adjusting the komi >> would make black play greedily, while random passing during playouts >> would make black play safe (rich men don't pick fights). >> >> Tapani Raiko >> >> Christoph Birk wrote: >> > >> > I think you got it the wrong way round. >> > Without dynamic komi (in high ha >> > ndicap games) even trillions of simulations >> > with _not_ find a move that creates a winning line, because the is none, >> > if the opponet has the same strength as you. >> > WHITE has to assume that BLACK will make mistakes, otherwise there >> > would be no handicap. >> > >> > Christoph >> > _______________________________________________ >> > computer-go mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> > >> > >> -- >> Tapani Raiko, <[email protected]>, +358 50 5225750 >> http://www.iki.fi/raiko/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> computer-go mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >
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