All true. We were hoping to get an easy boost by extracting joseki
from recorded games of strong players. Finding refutations of bad
moves is more difficult, because strong players don't make the bad
moves and weak players don't know how to refute them. :-)
Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/
On Jan 12, 2011, at 6:04 AM, terry mcintyre wrote:
My reading of the Orego paper on joseki seems to confirm that "good
joseki moves" are stored in the table, but the refutations of bad
moves are not.
Is this correct?
If so, then consider that the program used for test purposes might
use such a "bad move" or might even use a "trick move".
The proper reply is important in either case, but especially for
trick moves; other replies are often a loss.
I suggest that you won't see a general improvement from joseki
unless a) you know how to punish non-joseki, and b) you know which
joseki are more appropriate in a given situation.
If I read the Orego paper correctly, joseki are treated as patterns
on one quarter of the board; the rest of the board is not
considered. However, numerous joseki moves depend upon a ladder
several moves down - one should not select the "joseki" move without
first exploring ahead and checking the ladder condition.
Terry McIntyre <[email protected]>
Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.
From: Hideki Kato <[email protected]>
To: Aja <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 11:09:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Orego 7.08 released
Aja,
Aja: <0b435c80f12a4edcaeb1a45e1607b...@homepce1bd7763>:
>I re-post because the format seems to be in a mess.
>
>Hi David,
>
>> I also found that it makes no real difference to strength against
>> computers,
>> but helps a little against people, and makes the games much more
peasant
>> to
>> watch.
>
> I haven't try joseki in Erica, but it looks strange to me that you
said
>joseki "makes no real difference to strength against computers,
but helps a
>little against people". At least, in the game mfgo against Erica in
this KGS
>tournament, mfgo was leading from the beginning mainly because of
good
>joseki replies in each corner.
>
> I think joseki is very important for Go programs as soon as they
reach 1d
>level. I believe, a Go program will never reach stable high dan
(>=KGS 4d)
>without joseki knowledge.
Zen uses no opening book for 19x19 (but some joseki knowledge must
provided by the patterns acquired from game records). Yamato once
tried but made Zen weaker in benchmarks, possibly due to a mismatching
of the playing style.
Hideki
>This is the same with the situations of human learning. When a
player is
>weaker than 1d, joseki is not so important, because if he is
leading 10
>points in the opening stage, the game might be reversed by losing
20 points
>in an easy semeai of middle game. But, when a player is improved to
1d or
>2d, joseki starts to make sense, since his reading ability makes
the "semeai
>big loss" much
>fewer.
>
>For me, I can't imagine to beat a 6d player without joseki
knowledge. When I
>lose 10 points in the opening, that is almost decisive. That's why
pros
>sometimes resign early and immediately after wrong joseki playing,
because
>there is no chance to reverse, in their view.
>
>The stronger the playing strengh, the more important the opening
play. 9x9
>Go is exactly a good example for statement. Do you think mfgo, on
9x9, can
>beat a strong program, if the first move is played at the first
line? :)
>
>Aja
>
>
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--
Hideki Kato <mailto:[email protected]>
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