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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Japanese Long Consonants
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Translation!!! (was: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Japanese Long Consonants
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Hobbits spoke ?
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Rik Roots <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Kinship terms and discussion
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:49:15 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
John Cowan wrote:
> Even the surname "Gerry", historically pronounced with a [g], is now
> often made [dZ] even by those who bear it*, and the American political
> verb "gerrymander", meaning "to divide an area into districts in such
> a way as to advantage one group over another" is most often pronounced
> [dZ], although the first part of it memorializes Eldridge Gerry [g],
> the governor of Massachusetts,
El_b_ridge Gerry's descendants-- at least as of 50+ years ago, when one of
them was an Old School mate-- use(d) [g].
---------------------------------
Coming-out time: the "Old School", to which I've occasionally referred, was
St. Paul's in Concord NH. Time Magazine, until a few years ago, always
prefaced references to it with the adjectives "upper-crusty,
hockey-playing..."-- accurate enough though over-generalized. Many
graduates, including yours truly, are neither.
It was, and is, one of the two or three best private schools in the US; and
vastly superior, IONSHO, to, say, Andover :-)))))
-----------------------------------
who redrew the boundaries of election
> districts in 1812 so as to benefit his party. One of them looked
> something like a salamander, and was christened the "Gerry-mander"
> by a newspaper editor in captioning an editorial cartoon (see
> http://memory.loc.gov/rbc/rbpe/rbpe00/rbpe000/00000100/001dq.gif).
>
> ===
>
> [*] But the Enroughtys [da:biz] and the Taliaferros [EMAIL PROTECTED] will
> *never* submit to mere spelling pronunciations!
>
Along with the Featherstonehaughs [f&nSO] (IIRC) and the Beauchamps
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:14:06 +0100
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Rodlox wrote:
>
>
> according to recent archeological discoveries, it is now known that
> Hobbits existed in Indonesia...so, which language do you think they'd
> have known? :)
>
>
The common tongue of course! No... they did find some simple tools with
them and are suggested that despite their brain size (grapefruit sized
apparently) they did use tools. But language is another matter, and I'm
not sure language on our level is possible with a brain the size of a
monkey's. Some language perhaps, but I wouldn't expect anything as
complex as a natural language that's spoken by homo sapiens if I
travelled back in time. :)
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:08:03 +0100
From: Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Rodlox wrote:
>
>
> according to recent archeological discoveries, it is now known that
> Hobbits existed in Indonesia...so, which language do you think they'd
> have known? :)
>
>
'Hobbits', you mean?
Well, if the local legends are true, they had their own, 'murmuring'
language. How likely that is, I don't know.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:32:28 -0400
From: John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
Roger Mills scripsit:
> > [dZ], although the first part of it memorializes Eldridge Gerry [g],
> > the governor of Massachusetts,
>
> El_b_ridge Gerry's descendants-- at least as of 50+ years ago, when one of
> them was an Old School mate-- use(d) [g].
Oops. Obviously leakage from _Eldridge v. Ashcroft_, the copyright term
extension case. (We lost.)
> > [*] But the Enroughtys [da:biz] and the Taliaferros [EMAIL PROTECTED] will
> > *never* submit to mere spelling pronunciations!
> >
> Along with the Featherstonehaughs [f&nSO] (IIRC) and the Beauchamps
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AFAIK though neither family has much American presence.
--
John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
Promises become binding when there is a meeting of the minds and consideration
is exchanged. So it was at King's Bench in common law England; so it was
under the common law in the American colonies; so it was through more than
two centuries of jurisprudence in this country; and so it is today.
--Specht v. Netscape
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:31:38 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Long Consonants
Chris Bates wrote:
> I've read that Japanese Long consonants are actually a glottal stop and
> another consonant together, which I guess is why I find it easier to
> hear the difference in Japanese than in a language like Hungarian (where
> the long consonants aren't formed by adding glottal stops).
In the languages of South Sulawesi (Indonesia) that I worked with, the
geminate stops could be realized as either [?C] or [C:]; for voiceless stops
it was hard to hear much difference; for the voiced ones, a quite noticeable
difference, and the [C:] version was considered "more elegant".
I was
> thinking of introducing into a language a system of three accents:
>
> unaccented eg i short
> acute accent eg � long
> grave accent eg � short, terminated by glottal stop.
>
> So for instance I guess nippon written using this system would be n�pon.
> But I'm not sure about this... I'm not sure if I should have long vowels
> that can terminate with a glottal stop as well.
In the SSul languages, there was correlation between long vowel + 1
consonant, vs. short vowel + geminate, so: /sapa/ ['sa:pa] vs. /sappa/
['sa?pa ~ 'sap:a]. But syllable weight/mora distinctions were not
significant there, as they may be in Japanese.
Some other language might very well have the long C conditioned by the short
vowel, however.
I was thinking that this
> system could let me do some interesting sound changes... like for
> instance, d -> D inside words, like in spanish, but the change is
> blocked by a glottal stop (which later gets dropped), so I could have:
>
> d after any vowel without a grave accent: D
> d word initially or after a vowel with a grave accent: d
Something similar occurs in various Indonesian languages, usually after the
schwa vowel (or its reflex), so it's possible to have e.g. /sara/ < *sada
vs. /sada/ < [EMAIL PROTECTED] It suggests that there was something phonologically
"odd" about the historic *@ (which is indeed the cause of most of the
gemination in the SSul languages)
Of course a phonemic [?C ~C:] can arise from old consonant clusters too, if
your lang. is going to permit them. Example: Bugis sad:a ~sa?da 'voice' <
**sabda (Saskrit); Makassarese je?ne 'water' probably cognate with Ml.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'clear'; it also seems to account for some irregularities in Tagalog:
araw 'sun, day' (it "ought" to be *alaw) vs. related langs. aldaw, adlaw,
presumably < PPh. **aldaw (AN [EMAIL PROTECTED], where the *al- _may_ be a prefix)
> Since these might be contrasted in some pairs, it wouldn't just be a
> phonetic rule. I was thinking of a whole raft of similar changes I could
> do that the glottal stops would influence, so the accents would alter
> the pronounciation of the following consonant as well as the length of
> the vowel.
Yes indeed; geminate/long consonants are fun.
Although... Japanese doesn't allow "long" voiced stops I
> don't think, although if I'm doing them right I don't have any problem
> pronouncing them.
>
Is that true, O Japanophones? If so, I wonder why.
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:50:54 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
Joe wrote:
> Rodlox wrote:
>
> > according to recent archeological discoveries, it is now known that
> > Hobbits existed in Indonesia...so, which language do you think they'd
> > have known? :)
> >
> 'Hobbits', you mean?
>
> Well, if the local legends are true, they had their own, 'murmuring'
> language. How likely that is, I don't know.
>
Hmm. If, as is proposed, the isolated island environment led to their
miniaturization, the perhaps their language also got miniaturized :-)))
This is a fascinating and remarkable find, if true. There must have been
some contact, somewhere along the way, with Papuan/Australian peoples (who
reached their modern locations at least 30-40,000 years ago). Maybe these
"Hobbits" were a group that stayed behind during one or another migration,
then became reduced in size and (apparently) skeletally different due to
isolated environment +some bad gene(s) +interbreeding +poor nutrition over
the millennia. In that case, their language would have been Papuanoid or
Australoid.
(ObConlang/culture: just as remarkable as when the Kash encountered the
genetically/structurally different Lang-Lang on Yanatros)
Many areas of Indonesia have legends about strange (often "little") people
who live in the far reaches of the forest.
What accounts for the relatively small size of African Pygmies?
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:49:38 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:34:35 -0600, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>and a Rhaeto-Romance language more commonly in English called "Ladin".
Heh, you Americans would pronounce "Ladin" and "Latin" the same when
speaking uncarefully ["l&:4In], wouldn't you?
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:01:41 -0400
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Translation!!! (was: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language)
Jan van Steenbergen wrote:
> Askaic: a few references to my language (but not much, because it
> still isn't online). Furthermore, a couple of references to "Askaic
> Records", apparently some obscure grammaphone company, and one
> containing a text like "She'll be your sex slave forever"...
>
This must refer to Nakita Kash, pornstar:
iye yukatro kinjiti onam ri yuno lero� amara�
3s/fem become-FUT slave-2/poss sexual LOC all days ages
Googling for Kash turned up 177,000 hits, of which (in the first 100) two
refer to my language. It seems to be a popular name in the rock-n-roll
world; and a fairly common surname...among others.
_Gwr_ turns up 103,000 hits; mostly to do with the Great Western Railway; a
radio station in Bristol; 2 refs to my language, et al.
GWR is the Ethnologue code for Gwere (Africa).
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:17:09 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:32:28PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> [*] But the Enroughtys [da:biz] and the Taliaferros [EMAIL PROTECTED] will
> *never* submit to mere spelling pronunciations!
The name |Enroughty| is pronounced [da:biz]?!? That makes no sense
whatsoever! I can understand how the others could happen via reduction,
but . . .
-Marcos
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:29:39 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 10:50:04PM -0500, Herman Miller wrote:
> Jeffrey Jones wrote:
>
> >These days, googling before settling on a particular name will eliminate a
> >lot of the potential conflicts. In this case I endorse your suggestion of
> >changing the spelling, if possible, since David is bothered by it.
[...]
Searching for "Ebisedian" yields 3 pages of hits, mainly with relay
entries and CONLANG archives. No conflicting pages, but unfortunately
it doesn't turn up the "real" Ebis�dian page. (Probably because my
earlier mentions of Ebis�dian lacks the acute on the second /e/.)
Happily, searching for "Ebis�dian" does turn up the main Ebis�dian
page. So far, the name Ebis�dian or Ebisedian seems to be pretty
unique. (Yay! :-P)
Searching for "Tamahi" turns up lots of pages about gold and
alchemical minerals. Apparently "tamahi gold" refers to some mineral
forms. Only a few interspersed entries that refer to CONLANG archives
where I mentioned Tamahi. Searching for Tamah� doesn't help;
apparently Google treats /i/ the same as /�/ (beats me why /e/ and /�/
are different despite this). I don't even know if the "real" Tamah�
page appears anywhere; the "tamahi gold" pages completely overwhelm
the results.
Searching for "Tatari Faran" (in quotes) turns up the few posts on
CONLANG where I sketched the lang. Searching without the quotes turns
up one more page, belonging to some lawyer firm in Karachi. Apparently
"Tatari" is a last name, and "Faran" is the name of a hotel.
Interesting.
In any case, I fully sympathize with David's dilemma, having gone
through a similar thing in the area of computer programming. I started
working on a simple text-based todo-list manager (yes I know, I am a
wheel reinventor), and came up with the neat name "2do". However, I
did not make the program public for the many intervening years during
which the project was on the backburner. When I revived the project
and finally got it to a useful point, I discovered to my dismay that
somebody else had written a GUI-based todo-list manager with the same
name. By that time, I had grown really attached to the name "2do".
So I was faced with a dilemma: either to stake my claim at coming up
with the name first, or to change the name. The problem with the
former option is that my program was never published before the other
person's, so my claim would be on shaky ground. (Anyone could claim
they invented something before you did, especially if nobody else knew
about it when they did it.) So I was faced with the undesirable option
of renaming my program. The problem with the name was, in my analysis,
due to two things: (1) the domain of todo-list managers is a
particularly prolific one, and it was almost inevitable that sooner or
later, somebody would come up with a conflicting name. (2) The name
wasn't unique enough: there are only so many variations on "todo", and
sooner or later, a conflict would be inevitable. So I decided that, if
I was going to change the name, it must be something so unique that it
would be very unlikely anyone else would've come up with it.
My final choice was to rename my program to "yawn" - i.e., when I was
bored (yaawwn), it would remind me of what else I haven't done yet.
The filter language I used for it was renamed from SFL (Simple Filter
Language - another non-unique generic name only too likely to conflict
with something else) to "snore", the companion of "yawn". These are
common words, but I believe they are quite unique in the world of
todo-list managers, so I expect that they would remain mine. (The
choice of these particular names was also in part due to my reaction
of slapping dilemma with sarcastic humour.) Since the days of this
Great Renaming, I've come to like the humorous name, and use the
program to great utility even every day. The only thing missing is a
webpage to assert my claim to the names to Google, before the next
name collision comes along (arggghhh ... ).
T
--
It is widely believed that reinventing the wheel is a waste of time;
but I disagree: without wheel reinventers, we would be still be stuck
with wooden horse-cart wheels.
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:33:00 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 01:17:09PM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:32:28PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > [*] But the Enroughtys [da:biz] and the Taliaferros [EMAIL PROTECTED] will
> > *never* submit to mere spelling pronunciations!
>
> The name |Enroughty| is pronounced [da:biz]?!? That makes no sense
> whatsoever! I can understand how the others could happen via reduction,
> but . . .
Very maggelitinous, indeed. Almost on the order of writing "ghoti" for
[fIS]. :-)
T
--
This is a tpyo.
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:52:30 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:34:35 -0600, Muke Tever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>and a Rhaeto-Romance language more commonly in English alled "Ladin".
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Heh, you Americans would pronounce "Ladin" and "Latin" the same when
>>speaking uncarefully ["l&:4In], wouldn't you?
Not me! I'm a bit of a neophyte with x-sampa, but let's see what I
can come up with.
ladin is /l{d}n=/
latin is /l{t}n=/
I'm trying to show that the d and t are begun with the tongue against
the alveolus, but there is no oral release of air. Instead the
center of the tongue seems to rise to the palate to form the n and
the air is released through the nose. /I/ is never heard.
The minimal pairs maddens/matins, sadden/satin are produced in the
same way, mutatis mutandis.
I believe that Carsten is basing his supposition on the American
practice of voicing intervocal voiceless consonants, e.g., latter
=ladder. But in this case there is no intervocal voicing since there
are not two vowels involved. There is the /{/, but there is no /I/.
Charlie
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:19:40 -0400
From: Kit La Touche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
i think the real issue is one of both syllables being in the same metrical
foot: [l&?n=] for "latin" and something like [l&4n=] for "ladin" - the
latter is definitely voiced.
hm. saying "latter" ([l&[EMAIL PROTECTED]) makes me think it might not be feet after
all, but the syllabic n, as charlie points out. but i'm *definitely* not
using any [}] in what i'm saying.
curious.
-kit
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, caeruleancentaur wrote:
> In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Heh, you Americans would pronounce "Ladin" and "Latin" the same when
> >>speaking uncarefully ["l&:4In], wouldn't you?
> Not me! I'm a bit of a neophyte with x-sampa, but let's see what I
> can come up with.
>
> ladin is /l{d}n=/
>
> latin is /l{t}n=/
>
> I'm trying to show that the d and t are begun with the tongue against
> the alveolus, but there is no oral release of air. Instead the
> center of the tongue seems to rise to the palate to form the n and
> the air is released through the nose. /I/ is never heard.
>
> The minimal pairs maddens/matins, sadden/satin are produced in the
> same way, mutatis mutandis.
>
> I believe that Carsten is basing his supposition on the American
> practice of voicing intervocal voiceless consonants, e.g., latter
> =ladder. But in this case there is no intervocal voicing since there
> are not two vowels involved. There is the /{/, but there is no /I/.
>
> Charlie
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:36:22 -0400
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:52:30 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I believe that Carsten is basing his supposition on the American
>practice of voicing intervocal voiceless consonants, e.g., latter
>=ladder. But in this case there is no intervocal voicing since there
>are not two vowels involved. There is the /{/, but there is no /I/.
I based my assumptions on that indeed. OMG, now it's my turn at breaking
lose YAEPT :-S
Carsten
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:41:42 -0400
From: Jeffrey Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Long Consonants
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:45:52 +0100, Chris Bates
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've read that Japanese Long consonants are actually a glottal stop and
> another consonant together,
Not in any Japanese that I've ever heard (admittedly limited to Japanese
classes 20+ years ago, and mostly older people), but that doesn't affect
your conlang proposal. Glottal stop + consonant could be used and long
consonants could be derived from that. Japanese long consonants come mainly
from /t/ + consonant AFAICT.
> which I guess is why I find it easier to hear the difference in Japanese
> than in a language like Hungarian (where the long consonants aren't
> formed by adding glottal stops). I was thinking of introducing into a
> language a system of three accents:
>
> unaccented eg i short
> acute accent eg � long
> grave accent eg � short, terminated by glottal stop.
>
> So for instance I guess nippon written using this system would be n�pon.
> But I'm not sure about this... I'm not sure if I should have long vowels
> that can terminate with a glottal stop as well.
If you do, you could use the circumflex.
> I was thinking that this system could let me do some interesting sound
> changes... like for instance, d -> D inside words, like in spanish,
> but the change is blocked by a glottal stop (which later gets dropped),
> so I could have:
>
> d after any vowel without a grave accent: D
> d word initially or after a vowel with a grave accent: d
>
> Since these might be contrasted in some pairs, it wouldn't just be a
> phonetic rule. I was thinking of a whole raft of similar changes I could
> do that the glottal stops would influence, so the accents would alter
> the pronounciation of the following consonant as well as the length of
> the vowel.
This also suggests a possibility for an initial mutation. I've done
something vaguely like this in Rubaga. I mean using accent marks on the
vowel to indicate consonant quality as well as vowel length, although there
was no glottal stop involved.
> Although... Japanese doesn't allow "long" voiced stops I don't think,
> although if I'm doing them right I don't have any problem pronouncing
> them.
Japanese *does* allow them, e.g. beddo -- a Western style bed (IIRC), even
if they don't occur in native words. And I've seen "rr" in SinoJapanese.
Jeff
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:53:11 +0200
From: Rodlox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Hobbits spoke Indonesian!
> Rodlox wrote:
> > according to recent archeological discoveries, it is now known that
> > Hobbits existed in Indonesia...so, which language do you think they'd
> > have known? :)
> The common tongue of course! No... they did find some simple tools with
> them and are suggested that despite their brain size (grapefruit sized
> apparently) they did use tools. But language is another matter, and I'm
> not sure language on our level is possible with a brain the size of a
> monkey's. Some language perhaps, but I wouldn't expect anything as
> complex as a natural language that's spoken by homo sapiens if I
> travelled back in time. :)
13,000 years...homo sapiens coexisted with them for a time, yes?
and these "Hobbits" are members of our genus. (or, collective-yours, at
least...(why else do you think I have such trouble with Human languages?)).
although, to be honest, when I make an /m/ sound...ie, /mmmmm/, /good/
/cake/...it resonates in my throat and the back of my mouth.
is that connected to the placement of my voice box?
and would these "Hobbits" and Neandertals have spoken more in their throats
or with the fronts of their mouths (principally dental sounds), given their
voice box placement?
just wondering.
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:11:35 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
The distinction for me is that |Latin| has neither a [d] NOR a [t]
(except in careful speech, when it has the latter); it has a [?]. It's
true that in American, intervocalic /t/ normally goes to [d]; we have a
[d] in "bottle", not a [?]. But there are exceptions, mostly words that
end in /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ~ /tn=/: Latin, satin, gratin, button, mutton, etc, all
have [?] for the /t/. For me, the vocalic n is not the issue, as I also
have one of those after [d] in words like Aladdin, Madden, McFadden,
hidden, sodden, etc.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 02:19:40PM -0400, Kit La Touche wrote:
> i think the real issue is one of both syllables being in the same metrical
> foot: [l&?n=] for "latin" and something like [l&4n=] for "ladin" - the
> latter is definitely voiced.
>
> hm. saying "latter" ([l&[EMAIL PROTECTED]) makes me think it might not be feet after
> all, but the syllabic n, as charlie points out. but i'm *definitely* not
> using any [}] in what i'm saying.
>
> curious.
>
> -kit
>
> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> > In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >>Heh, you Americans would pronounce "Ladin" and "Latin" the same when
> > >>speaking uncarefully ["l&:4In], wouldn't you?
> > Not me! I'm a bit of a neophyte with x-sampa, but let's see what I
> > can come up with.
> >
> > ladin is /l{d}n=/
> >
> > latin is /l{t}n=/
> >
> > I'm trying to show that the d and t are begun with the tongue against
> > the alveolus, but there is no oral release of air. Instead the
> > center of the tongue seems to rise to the palate to form the n and
> > the air is released through the nose. /I/ is never heard.
> >
> > The minimal pairs maddens/matins, sadden/satin are produced in the
> > same way, mutatis mutandis.
> >
> > I believe that Carsten is basing his supposition on the American
> > practice of voicing intervocal voiceless consonants, e.g., latter
> > =ladder. But in this case there is no intervocal voicing since there
> > are not two vowels involved. There is the /{/, but there is no /I/.
> >
> > Charlie
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:11:14 +0200
From: Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: USAGE: name pronunciation
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:49:15 -0400, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Along with the Featherstonehaughs [f&nSO] (IIRC) and the Beauchamps
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
And the Marjoribanks [mA:tSb&nks], some of whom might live in Beaulieu
[bju:li] or Loughborough ["[EMAIL PROTECTED]@].
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:24:02 +0200
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
>>My conlang Sohlob was originally _Sahrab_, but then I discovered
>>that this is a Pakistani surname, so lest I offend some Mr/Ms
>>Sahrab I changed the name to _Sahlab_, only to discover that this
>>is a (modern) Egyptian drink of some kind(*), so I changed it
>>again to _Sohlob_, this time Googling to make sure it didn't exist.
>>Somehow the Egyptian association stuck though, for the conculture
>>and the land where it is located bears som similarity to ancient
>>Egypt.
>>
>>(* I also had troubles keeping apart the lang's /r_0/ and /S/ in
>>my own pronunciation, so I changed all instances of /r_0/ to /K/
>>which is a cooler sound overall. Later I changed /S/ to /s\/ --
>>a much more distinctive sound -- and resurrected the /r_0/ ~ /K/
>>distinction in a dialect of the language, which has three dialects,
>>a fourth in the works and a sister language planned.)
>
>
> Nevertheless, the thing the name always make me think of is Shelob. No offense
> to arachnophobe sohlobophones!
How can you possibly confuse [sQ'KQb_0] and ['Si:lQb]?
/BP 8^)
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
(Tacitus)
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:53:32 +0100
From: Rik Roots <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Wednesday 27 Oct 2004 20:43, David Peterson wrote:
<snip>
> So, my question: Has something similar happened to anyone
> else? And, do you think I should change the name of the
> language? Would you, in this situation? Also, what if someone
> created a language with a name like Teonaht, not knowing
> that one already existed, and (with no disrespect to this
> imaginary person) was far better?
>
Yep.
When I decided to attempt a polysynthetic language last year, I decided to
locate it in the southwest corner of my conworld continent, which happens to
have a number of towns ending with the syllable "ga". So I called the
language Ga.
http://www.kalieda.org/planet/telik/index.html
A few months after the website went up, I got a strange email asking for
details of my new language, and how it related to other languages in West
Africa. A couple of minutes of Googling turned up the fact that there really
is a language spoken in Ghana which goes by a number of names, including
"Ga". Checking the weblogs, I was also registering 5-10 visits a month from
people searching the web for "ga language".
Oops!
Well, I decided that I didn't want to mislead people searching for a living
language, and I also decided that "Ga" wasn't a very good name for a
polysynthetic language (far too short and simple), so I changed the name of
the language to:
Gartskozl'il'zikmask
I still call it Ga - I claim that it's what foreigners call the language
because they can't pronounce the second syllable of the word - rtskoz
> -David
>
Rik
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:29:11 GMT
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Kinship terms and discussion
For those anthropologists out there, I am using an Iroqouian system, with a
patrilinear inheritance..
aka: just like the Akan in Ghana/Ivory Coast
advise. let me know what ya think of it...
Proto-Drem lineage is done thru the women of the families, extended families and
clans, but there is a male lineage done in dealing with children and inheriting
children. The general system can be depicted as follows:
B�m Father and his brothers
K�k Mother and her sisters
Rr�oops Mothers brother
�ầd Fathers sister
Ź�ţ Brother, Sister and any (male or female) parallel cousins
Bu�g Mothers brothers children
Gấl Fathers sisters children
Kluob Your children or brothers children
Ţl�d your sisters children
On the other side, when dealing with male inheritance there are two ways seen. We see
this emerge when a man dies and is inherited by his sister's son. When your father
dies, any surviving property goes initially to any of his surviving brothers first. At
this point, your father�s sister (�ầd) becomes your mother (K�k). This is seen
as the heir will take on the paternal responsibilities. The second way is when your
mother�s brother (Rr�oops) dies. You then would take inherit his position and take
responsibility and status over his children, which then become your children (Kluob).
This system is further complicated due to the fact that Gấl and Bu�g are
preferred marriage partners.
The Proto-Drem practice this �cross-cousin� marriage system with two main ideas behind
this.
1. a direct exchange initial marriage pattern, in which two men marry each
other's sisters,
2. a perpetuation of exchanges and alliance between the two lineages involved
through the inter-marriage of subsequent children, who are doubly related as cross
cousins through both fathers and mothers.
The Proto-Drem uses this marriage system through an additional denotation of the
cross-cousin terms. A man's term for his female cross-cousin, Gấl, is also the
term for wife, which should probably be considered as its primary meaning. The term
for male cross-cousin, Bu�g, also denotes brother-in-law, in both senses of the term,
since your wife's brother will normally be married to your sister. In a similar
fashion, women classify male cross cousins and husbands within one category, Bu�gbu,
and female cross cousins and sisters-in-law within another Gấlg�.
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:48:21 -0700
From: "Jonathyn Bet'nct" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
Let me try:
Mikiana:
Did you mean Mikania?
My language, my web site, something in German, a species classification
name, a character created by someone called Mikiana the Elf Princess, a
text in Maniilaq.
Hasta la pasta,
Jonathyn Bet'nct
--
Web site: http://kreativekorp.cjb.net
AIM: tamchel215718
Yahoo: jonrelay
MSN: jonnie1717
ICQ: 76731065 Why would I need an icy cucumber?
I'm hardly ever on IM, but I'll usually answer my e-mail in less than a
day.
if (email(i).IdentifyType) := kEmailTypeSpam then
email(i).forward "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:02:14 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 02:19:40PM -0400, Kit La Touche wrote:
>i think the real issue is one of both syllables being in the same
>metrical foot: [l&?n=] for "latin" and something like [l&4n=] ?
>for "ladin" - the latter is definitely voiced.
>
> hm. saying "latter" ([l&[EMAIL PROTECTED]) makes me think it might not be feet
>after all, but the syllabic n, as charlie points out. but i'm
>*definitely* not using any [}] in what i'm saying.
>
> curious.
>
> -kit
>
I must not be understanding the IPA-xsampa chart. It looks to me
like /&/ represents a rounded vowel, the IPA being the digraph OE. I
can't imagine anyone pronouncing the "a" in ladder/latter/Latin with
a rounded vowel. That's why I used the symbol /{/ which I understand
to represent the flat "a" as in the English word "pat." I think the
glottal stop (/?/ I believe) is better than what I orginally wrote,
but there is definitely no schwa (/@/) in my pronunciation of ladder,
which I see as /l{d3/. I think!
Charlie
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:14:51 -0700
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 11:02:14PM -0000, caeruleancentaur wrote:
[...]
> I must not be understanding the IPA-xsampa chart. It looks to me
> like /&/ represents a rounded vowel, the IPA being the digraph OE. I
> can't imagine anyone pronouncing the "a" in ladder/latter/Latin with
> a rounded vowel. That's why I used the symbol /{/ which I understand
> to represent the flat "a" as in the English word "pat."
I think this is just a confusion between X-SAMPA proper and CXS, which
is CONLANG's modified version of X-SAMPA. My conlang resources page
has a chart for both, which you may compare:
http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/
One of the notable differences in CXS is the use of [&] for the a-e
ligature instead of [{]. I believe most people on this list use CXS
when transcribing IPA, but once in a while some confusion arises
because it's not specified which system is being used.
T
--
The right half of the brain controls the left half of the body. This means
that only left-handed people are in their right mind. -- Manoj Srivastava
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:32:50 EDT
From: Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: (Mis)Naming a Language
In a message dated 10/27/2004 11:54:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 06:27:40PM -0400, Doug Dee wrote:
>>> Notice: I have conlangs under construction called Revonian, Katevan,
>>> Lorian,
>>> and Frankish. Now no one else on earth can use those names, since I was
>>> here
>>> first. ;-)
>>
>> Think a natlang might have dibs on that last one. :)
>I think Doug was kidding with that last one. :) And I think I'm going to
>copy him on that name Katevan. :)
I was only half-kidding on Frankish. I do have a conlang under construction
by that name. It's a fictional descendant of Old French, spoken in the Middle
East by descendants of Crusaders. "Frankish" seemed like the obvious name,
because (I've read) Middle Easterners referred to the Crusaders and to Western
Europeans generally as "Franks."
I was aware of the coincidence with the extinct Germanic language of the
Franks. It's unfortunate, but it didn't seem very important.
However, if anyone has a suggestion for a better name, feel free to let me
know.
Doug
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