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There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. NATLANG: Geramn /heil/?
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Language Change Among Immortals
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Middle Voice/ Dative Subject Intransitive Translation Challenge
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. what is the difference?
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. ATTN David Peterson
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: what is the difference?
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: what is the difference?
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: NATLANG: Geramn /heil/?
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: what is the difference?
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Referent Tracking
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:59:50 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
In my previous message:
>I have not yet worked with poetry in Senjecan. I doubt that poetry
>will work. I'll probably have to go with syllabification,
>alliteration and assonance.
I meant to write, "I doubt that RHYME will work."
I am off today so I have some time to play. I present to you a haiku
by Taniguchi Buson (1716-1783) that has stuck in my mind for decades.
Perhaps someone on the list will give us a literal translation of the
Japanese.
Mi ni shimu ya
Naki tsuma ni kushi wo
Neya ni fumu.
The English translation that I like:
The piercing chill I feel:
My dead wife's comb, in our bedroom,
Under my heel.
Here is an Italian translation that I found on line:
Un brivido de freddo
lì, sul pavimento della camera
al tocar col piede
il pettine della mia povera cara.
A bit long, I think, for a haiku.
Here is my translation in Senjecan:
µúsuftêlpos éna - our-bedroom in
múpersênos nða - my-heel under
nêlantom ûqrom mïûta: - piercing chill I-feel
¡düêêjmus mugüênus câßom! - dead my-wife's comb
µ = m_0; q = G; ï = palatalization; ü = labialization; ß = ts)
Haiku works well, I think, in Japanese and in English, not very well
in Italian and Senjecan!
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
--- End forwarded message ---
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:52:37 -0800
From: "Joseph B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NATLANG: Geramn /heil/?
>From what I can tell, /heil/ in German means both: "well-being" and
"healed", and "holy" and "redemption"?
Is this from convergence? or adaptation? or ??
Thanks.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:26:34 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
Charlie wrote:
> >I have not yet worked with poetry in Senjecan. I doubt that poetry
> >will work. I'll probably have to go with syllabification,
> >alliteration and assonance.
>
> I meant to write, "I doubt that RHYME will work."
>
The same in Kash, generally, though by varying word order you might
occasionally get a true rhyme. Otherwise, as in e.g. Spanish it would
involve repeating grammatical material like endings and suffixes--
boooooring. IIRC Spaniards feel that's too jingly, and Kash agree.
> I am off today so I have some time to play. I present to you a haiku
> by Taniguchi Buson (1716-1783) that has stuck in my mind for decades.
> Perhaps someone on the list will give us a literal translation of the
> Japanese.
>
> Mi ni shimu ya
> Naki tsuma ni kushi wo
> Neya ni fumu.
>
> The English translation that I like:
>
> The piercing chill I feel:
> My dead wife's comb, in our bedroom,
> Under my heel.
>
OK, here goes Kash:
a, pañ cakronek
ri atecirumim
anju pripis ñaniki
karandeñimi pakorem -- (OR: karandeñimi horem)
lines of 5, 6, 7, 8 syll., (with alternate final line 5,6,7,7-- but plain
"horem" is much less respectful/affectionate than "re pakorem" [=/par+horem/
> *pakrorem with r-deletion, 'HON-dead'] ="the late".
If we eliminate line 2, and make the last line "karandeñimi re pakorem" it
becomes a nice 5-7-9 syll., but loses a lot of the power I think; besides,
Kash favor quatrains.......
Interlinear:
a pañ cak-ronek -- ['a / panjak'ronEk]
oh! how ACCID-cold
ri atel.çiru-mim -- [ri ,ateci'rumim]
LOC room.sleep-our
anju pripis ñaniki -- ['andZu 'pripis Ja'niki]
when step.on comb
karandeñ-i-mi (re) pakorem -- [,karande'Jimi (,re) pa'korEm
special.friend-GEN-1s.POSS (REL) "the late"
There's even assonantal rhyme in the 1st and last lines
Literal Engl: Oh, how overcome-with-cold
in our bedroom
when (I)stepped-on comb/brush
of-my-special-friend/lover (who) recently-dead (OR ...dead)
"karendeñ" = "special friend ~lover of either sex, with whom one has a
sexual relationship" -- much more intimate à la Kash than "kanjetre"
'spouse' or "(ka)çama" 'wife', plus it fits the syll. count :-))) There are
yet other alternatives, but this I think is both the bare minimum as well as
the most idiomatic.
> Haiku works well, I think, in Japanese and in English, not very well
> in Italian and Senjecan!
Essentially monosyllabic vs. polysyllabic languages, eh? Kash is guilty too.
A lovely little poem. Thanks!!
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:44:46 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
On 11/25/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Charlie wrote:
> > >I have not yet worked with poetry in Senjecan. I doubt that poetry
> > >will work. I'll probably have to go with syllabification,
> > >alliteration and assonance.
> >
> > I meant to write, "I doubt that RHYME will work."
> >
> The same in Kash, generally, though by varying word order you might
> occasionally get a true rhyme. Otherwise, as in e.g. Spanish it would
> involve repeating grammatical material like endings and suffixes--
> boooooring. IIRC Spaniards feel that's too jingly, and Kash agree.
Huh! I had thought that by putting Elomi's grammar class marker at the
head of the word instead of the tail, I was sadly reducing the rhyming
that could be done. But if what you say about Spanish rhyme is
correct, then Elomi may actually be in better position for interesting
rhymes, rather than worse. The Elomi Poet Laureates would be in better
position to say, however.
---larry
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:24:30 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
Quoting caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --- In [email protected], Michael Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >115 different language to say i luv u....
>
> >22> Danish - Jeg Elsker Dig
> >42> Hindi - Hum Tumhe Pyar Karte hae
> >70> Norwegian - Jeg Elsker Deg
> >76> Polish - Kocham Ciebie
> >109> Hakka - Ngai oi Ngi (update by Kent)
> >110> Hokien - Wa ai Lu (update by Kent)
>
> Do these languages really capitalize every word in a sentence?
Danish, Norwegian, and Polish certainly don't. The rest are not natively written
in the Latin alphabet.
Meghean: Senhecar [Se'D~ekar] (and yes that's a voiced nasalized dental fric)
Tairezazh: Ta tshei shas* [ta tS)ei) Sas]
Kalini Sapak: Mu muzatu ta / Mu muzati ta (said by a man and woman respectively)
Larethian: Zorah za ['TQ4ax Ta]
* That's the straight forward translation; in practice, I suppose it will very
commonly have either the verb or the object fronted for emphasis - _Shas ta
tshei_ "I love *you*" or _Tshei ta shas_ "I *love* you".
Andreas
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:52:21 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
--- Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Huh! I had thought that by putting Elomi's grammar
> class marker at the
> head of the word instead of the tail, I was sadly
> reducing the rhyming
> that could be done. But if what you say about
> Spanish rhyme is
> correct, then Elomi may actually be in better
> position for interesting
> rhymes, rather than worse. The Elomi Poet Laureates
> would be in better
> position to say, however.
>
> ---larry
>
At this early stage of Elomi vocabulary development
the poet may have to coin a number of new words in
order to compolete the poem. That being the case, the
poet could simply create the necessary words in such a
way that they rhyme! ;-)
--gary
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:44:18 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Language Change Among Immortals
--- In [email protected], Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> IIRC, Robert Blust considers taboo-substitution as one of the main
> reasons why some of the Melanesian languages (Solomon Is., New
> Caledonia et al.) are so divergent, vis-a-vis reconstructed
> Austronesian vocab. Of course those islands were settled early on
> by "Papuan" groups and languages, the ANs came later. Taboo-
> substitution is also mentioned in some of the old Dutch works on
> various tribal groups within Indonesia-- the Bare'e of central
> Sulawesi are the best known to me (the language is now called Poso).
Now that I've found the reference, what you've said backs them up.
ObConLang:
The original poster's immortals might also have a lot of taboo-
substitution if they have a lot of polygamy, or a lot of divorce and
re-marriage, if, as the quote below indicates is common in Melanesia,
they have a taboo against the names of relatives-in-law.
To fulfil my promise to Jim Henry,
I will quote five paragraphs from chapter five of the following book.
"The Atlas of Languages, Revised Edition:
The Origin and Development of Languages Throughout the World"
Consultant Editors Bernard Comrie, Stephen Matthews, and Maria
Polinsky
Facts On File Inc.
part of Facts On File Library of Language and Literature
ISBN 0-8160-5123-2
Copyright 2003, 1996 by Quarto, Inc.
LoC # P107.A87 2003
Chapter 5
"Pacific"
by Maria Polinsky and Geoffrey Smith
section: "Melanesia"
I quote:
|"For the linguist, the most remarkable feature of Melanesia is the
|extreme diversity of its languages. Vanuatu has a population of
|little over 150,000, but boasts 105 identifiable languages, making
|it the world's most linguistically diverse country, with an average
|of one language for every 1,500 speakers. The Solomon Islands have
|similarly small language groups: nearly 90 languages are spoken by
|a population of about 300,000. According to the Summer Institute of
|Linguistics' latest survey, in Papua New Guinea there are over 860
|languages in a population of around 4 million. Many of these are
|still undescribed or incompletely known to outsiders, so for this
|reason alone care must be taken when making universal
|generalizations about human language. For example, SOV languages
|nearly always have case systems, but the Haruai language in Papua
|New Guinea does not. Phonologically, som Chimbu languages of the
|New Guinea Highlands have the highly unusual "lateral velar
|affricate", which can be thought of as a kind of scraped "g" sound
|made with the side of the tongue, while the Rotokas language of the
|North Solomons appears to lack distinct nasal phonemes, once thought
|to be universal."
|
|"Taking Papua New Guinea as an example, how do we account for this
|incredible diversity? Why should an area with only one-tenth of one
|percent of the world's population harbor almost one-sixth of the
|world's languages? The fragmentation is frequently explained in
|terms of the tribal groups' isolation by the mountainous, rugged
|terrain and by constant warfare, but for a number of reasons this
|cannot be the full story."
|
|"To begin with, the largest language group in Papua New Guinea is
|Enga, with approximately 160,000 Speakers. Yet the Engans live in
|the Central Highlands in some of the most rugged and remote areas in
|the country, or indeed anywhere on Earth. On the other hand, the
|region of greatest linguistic diversity is probably Sepik, near the
|mainland north coast, where it is not unusual for villages to speak
|very different languages despite close proximity and easy social
|contact. The idea that before Europeans' arrival, the tribal groups
|were unaware of outsiders, has been greatly exaggerated.
|Anthropologists and archeologists have clearly demonstrated that
|complex and extensive trading networks had already existed."
|
|"In many of these societies, great pride is taken in small cultural
|differences. It seems there is a tendency to emphasize linguistic
|peculiarities for the sake of identity, and over the millennia this
|has doubtless generated difference. The phenomenon of word taboo
|may also have been a contributing factor: in-laws, for example, are
|commonly forbidden to utter one another's names; similarly, those of
|the recently deceased may be taboo. Since personal names can also
|be ordinary words, alternatives may be substituted, creating an
|accelerated rate of change."
|
|"The late Don Laycock, who made a life-long study of Papua New
|Guinean languages, suggested that perhaps the problem should be
|approached from another direction. Instead of wondering why
|Melanesia has so many languages, maybe we should ask why the rest of
|the world has so few, or how some languages become established over
|such wide areas. Most of the conditions required to establish a
|dominant language --- centralized political power, standardization,
|a writing system, and a literary tradition --- were absent in
|Melanesia, and thus could not allow any one language to become pre-
|eminent."
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:06:18 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Middle Voice/ Dative Subject Intransitive Translation Challenge
--- In [email protected], Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tom Chappell wrote:
>> Note that in many languages, in verbs of emotion and perception and
>> judgment, and even in verbs such as "seek" and "find", either the
>> Experiencer or the Stimulus gets put in the Dative instead of the -
-
>> Nominative (Experiencer, Accusative language)
>> Ergative (Experiencer, Ergative or Tripartite or Split Language)
>> Accusative (Stimulus, Accusative or Tripirtite or Split Language)
>> Absolutive (Stimulus, Ergative Language)
>
> Dash it, Tom!
> Exactly this evening I was thinking about using Dative construction
> for verba sentiendi in my recent project! Are the ideas hanging in
> the air?
> -- Yitzik
The first verse of an American folk hymn, variously titled either
"God Is Seen" or "Search Hill And Valley Through", might be a good one
for having predicates which might, in some languages, be put into a
form in which, either the verb is in the middle voice, or the only
participant of the verb is in none of the nominative nor absolutive
nor accusative nor ergative cases.
This hymn is usually to the tune called "Captain Kidd".
The clause I have in mind is "God is seen"
Here comes the first verse:
Through all the Earth below, God is seen, all around.
Search hill and valley through; there He's found.
The growing of the corn, the lily, and the thorn;
The pleasant and forlorn, all declare God is there.
In valleys dressed in green, God is seen.
Anyone who knows either a conlang or a natlang -- or more than one --
which occasionally employs middle voice, or dative subjects of
intransitives, or perhaps dative subjects of passives of verbs of
perception, -- give it a shot if you feel like it, I'd like to see it.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 23:22:00 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: what is the difference?
whats the difference between
/h/
and
/h_v/
?
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:31:40 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
On 23/11/05, Michael Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Poster: Michael Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: 115 different language to say i luv u....
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
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>
> 115 different language to say i luv u....
Ooh, you put Hiligaynon twice (actyally three times, Ilonggo is
synomymous with Hiligaynon)
37> Hiligaynon - Palangga ko ikaw
41> Hiligaynon - Guina higugma ko ikaw
47> Ilonggo - Palangga ko ikaw
"Palangga ko ikaw" means more like "I care for/about you" if I
understand the construction right
41 should actually be written "Ginahigugma ko ikaw", and is the
literal way of saying "I love you" (it's also spelled Guinahigugma ko
ikaw", gui being the Spanish way of spelling /gi/
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:47:07 -0500
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: ATTN David Peterson
Sorry to send this to the list, but I'm not sure of David Peterson's current
e-mail address. At any rate:
Hi David:
There's a message you directed at me a while back, but which I didn't
answer[1].
Just in case this was deleted from your inbox, here's the original message I
sent you:
"Hi David,
Was just wondering-- if it's not too inconvenient, could you perhaps send me
all the data on Moro that you have? I don't get to read about such obscure
languages every day, and I think this'd be really cool. :))
Thanks!
Trebor"
It was dated March 8, 2005 10:38 PM, and entitled "The Moro Language".
So, and I apologise for this long delay, I was just wondering what you had
to say[2] on this matter?
Thanks again!
T.
[1]
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0503B&L=CONLANG&P=R14529&I=3
[2] If you want to reply to me off-list, this e-mail address will work:
robertmjung at hotmail dot com .
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:14:39 -0500
From: Trebor Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what is the difference?
Reilly wrote:
"whats the difference between
/h/
and
/h_v/
?"
[h] is a voiceless glottal fricative; [h_v] is its voiced counterpart.
Incidentally, I feel I should explain this (sorry if I seem patronising :)):
Slashes are used to denote phonemics, i.e., the contrastive sounds of a
language. Square brackets are used to denote phonetics, i.e., what you hear,
whether it be phonemically relevant or not. Angle brackets (and braces, but
far less often) are used to denote orthography. Approximately, at any rate.
I'm sure someone else can provide a better explanation.
Trebor
(Yes, I still exist, in case anyone still remembers me... Also, if anyone's
tried to contact me recently, I haven't responded because I don't bother
checking my Free account anymore. All I seemed to receive was spam...)
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:50:08 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what is the difference?
On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 23:22 -0500, Reilly Schlaier wrote:
> whats the difference between
> /h/
> and
> /h_v/
> ?
The first is a phoneme which probably represents a group of sounds that
are generally somewhat like [h]; the second represents a phoneme which
probably represents a group of sounds that is generally somewhat like
[h_v]. You probably didn't mean to ask that question. (That's the
difference between slashes, which mark phonemes and are very much
specific to a particular interpretation of a phonology, and square
brackets, which attempt to be much more general, although they needn't
be anywhere near precise.)
[h_v] is a "voiced [h]". [h] is a by default a voiceless glottal
fricative. The IPA and CXS/X-Sampa have a character which represents a
voiced glottal fricative, being CXS/X-Sampa [h\] or IPA [ɦ] (a hooktop
haitch, if you can't see that). Now, in a context in which "h_v" is
used, particularly as a phoneme, one is probably trying to draw some
distinction between [h_v] and [h\], and without further information, you
simply can't tell what that is. One commonly sees things like [z_0]
(_0=voiceless diacritic) in contrast to [s] to represent some relatively
arbitrary "voiceless form of /z/" sound to contrast with /s/ in some
way, which might be an equally arbitrary "tense" vs "lax" distinction,
or it could be that the /z/ is only partially unvoiced (with voicing
stopping/starting part-way through the sound); this could be something
equivalent. In transcriptions of Danish, /b_0 d_0 g_0/ are sometimes(?
commonly? always?) used for [p t k] rather than /p t k/, which instead
represent aspirated/affricated [p_h t_s k_h].
(In an environment where [h_v] vs [h] is used, it could simply be that
the person who wrote it is trying to emphasise that it's a member of
the /h/ phoneme, so that in some language where /h/ is unvoiced word
initially but voiced between vowels, you might get /hahe/ = [hah_ve],
equivalently but perhaps less transparently [hah\e].)
The difference between a voiceless phone and a voiced phone is that with
voiced phones, the vocal chords are vibrating, whereas they are not with
voiceless phones. (The difference between /s/ and /z/.) Thus: [h_v] and
equivalently [h\] have vibrating vocal chords throughout the duration of
articulation, which [h] lacks.
Still, I don't know how to produce a voiced glottal fricative, and I
don't know how it's different from a vowel. I do understand they're
quite common, though, particularly intervocalically (where I wouldn't
know how they're distinguished from hiatus).
--
Tristan.
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:47:05 +1100
From: Tristan Mc Leay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NATLANG: Geramn /heil/?
On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 09:52 -0800, Joseph B. wrote:
> From what I can tell, /heil/ in German means both: "well-being" and
> "healed", and "holy" and "redemption"?
> Is this from convergence? or adaptation? or ??
Well, "health", "heal", "whole" (with an unetymological w-), "holy",
"hallow", "hail" ("~ Mary, full of grace", not frozen rain), the first
part of "holiday", the second of "wassail" etc. etc. etc. all derive
from the same Germanic root *hail- (with various affixes), though some
are re-borrowings from Old Norse. This diversity of meaning may go back
to the Indo-European era too, I don't know.
So I suppose mostly adaptation that mostly predates the German era.
(PS: I believe in German it's actually /hail/. If you intended to do
italics, the accept way to do that is with underscores, thus _heil_, to
avoid confusion with phonemic notation.)
--
Tristan
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:57:21 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what is the difference?
Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
[snip]
>
> Still, I don't know how to produce a voiced glottal fricative, and I
> don't know how it's different from a vowel. I do understand they're
> quite common, though, particularly intervocalically (where I wouldn't
> know how they're distinguished from hiatus).
They occur in some varieties of English in words like _behind_, _ahead_
etc.
As for 'hiatus', it rather depends exactly what one means by the term.
It is used to denote that two vowels sounds are kept and not run
together as a diphthong. How that is realized in any particular language
will, I think , vary. It may well be that a non-phonemic [h\] is used in
some; I believe some languages use a non-phonemic glottal stop in such
positions - that wouldn't do in English as we Brits would 'hear' it as
an allophone of /t/ :)
But, yes, the voiced glottal fricatives is not particularly uncommon
among the world's languages. The /h/ of both Czech and Afrikaans, for
example, is voiced, whether initial or intervocalic.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:43:30 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Referent Tracking
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, 09:23 CET, Chris Bates wrote:
> Since we're talking about Topics I'd like to share
> something that I posted on the ZBB a while ago (and sadly
> got few replies).
Who are you over there?
> SWITCH REFERENCE SYSTEM
> Basically works by indicating if some argument of the verb
> (usually the subject) is the same as an argument of the
> preceding or following clause. Usually switch reference
> systems don't have a fully functional voice system for
> promoting other arguments to the priledged role (subject)
> since if they did it would kind of defeat the purpose of
> the system.
This reminds me that Ayeri is still not really able to cope
with constructions such as
I give the dog a cookie. It likes them very much.
In the second sentence it wouldn't be clear, to which
argument of the first sentence "it" refers, or rather, what
_à_ in the 3sg pronoun _-iyV_ would refer to -- the cookie
(given that it's animate, but edible things aren't usually)
or "it". I need some particle or something to indicate that
the agent of sentence B relates to the patient of sentence
A. Another, though less elegant way would be to say
I give the dog a cookie. The dog, it likes them very much.
> SWITCH FUNCTION SYSTEM
> This is what one of the syntax books I read calls a system
> with a reasonably well developed voice system (like
> English) that is used to keep track of referents via
> processes like zero anaphora. Eg in English, if you have
> two consecutive clauses with the same subject you can
> delete the second:
>
> the man went to the store and 0 bought a coke
>
> and you can use the voice system to maintain subject
> continuity:
>
> the man went to the store but 0 was hit by a bus on the
> way
Ayeri doesn't like such constructions and marks all verbs
for person and case (where you put the "0"), not just the
heading one. Should be possible in non-formal language,
though.
> Although such voice changes can be used simply to delete
> arguments,
No, not completely delete I think. Ask Henrik on Tyl Sjok
(IIRC).
> *TOPIC* SYSTEM
Are (wannabe) trigger systems also Topic systems? (Not
intending to tread loose [lostreten?] a debate about trigger
systems)
> This area doesn't seem to have been giving much thought or
> through describing by people writing conlangs, which is
> why it interests me. I mean, people say "I have a switch
> reference system" or "I have a *topic* system" etc, but
> they don't go into detail when it comes to the role such
> systems play in things like reference tracking, and indeed
> whether for a given system that is one of its functions
> (Swahili, for instance, has a passive but does not use it
> as a major reference tracking device).
What a long sentence. I already mentioned that I overlooked
the issue of tracking in Ayeri a bit up to now.
Cheers,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:24:18 -0000
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 115 different language to say i luv u....
Oops! I forgot the conlang! There are several ways of saying "I love you" in
Omeina, depending on what sort of relationship you have.
"To love" as a friend is Eria, so "I love you = I love thee" is:
Eria Daiseria (kind of rhymes!)
"To love" which also carries the idea of "to lust after" is:
Kalu daiseria
With regard to the version of Romany, it's British Rom, such as it is.
Mike.
Visit the improved website at:
www.starman.co.uk
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