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There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: fewest sounds?
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4. Re: fewest sounds?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5. Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8. Re: Hail Mary (changes)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
From: Jonathan Knibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Back on the turf!
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Hail Mary
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Proto-World (was Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds))
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Baby speech
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: Hail Mary
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:32:05 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
okay while i was reading the various posts i thought to myself that the
most obvious combination of consonant+vowel would be 'ka'
and oddly enough the first person to give and example of syllable
stucture used 'ka' so i was wondering what the first combonation of
con+vow that came to mind for everyone would be.
would it be 'ka'
'te' maybe
or 'po'?
it is kinda interesting to seee what everyone would put down as their
choice pair
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:48:14 -0500
From: Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
when i posted this i had been thinking about this for most of the day
and i thought that one could have a lang. with just /k/ and /a/
words being something like 'a' 'ka' 'ak' 'kak' 'kka' 'akk' 'kaa' 'aak'
with a finnish like pronounciation.
so a sentence would run like
ka a ak k akkak akk.
1.sing subj.mark 2.sing obj.mark hit prs.mark
i hit you
lol
sorry i was just thinking how odd this language would sound.
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:19:18 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
h + (schwa). This is the combo that is pronounced with the least effort.
Check reply-tos.
On 11/29/05, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> okay while i was reading the various posts i thought to myself that the
> most obvious combination of consonant+vowel would be 'ka'
> and oddly enough the first person to give and example of syllable
> stucture used 'ka' so i was wondering what the first combonation of
> con+vow that came to mind for everyone would be.
> would it be 'ka'
> 'te' maybe
> or 'po'?
> it is kinda interesting to seee what everyone would put down as their
> choice pair
>
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:21:12 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
Watch reply-to.
This still has more than 2 elements (k and a). It has length,
connection with others.
Also, with few sounds, it would probably be easier if we didn't have
to inflect. This just adds more differences between words, which
would result in even more confusion than before.
On 11/29/05, Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> when i posted this i had been thinking about this for most of the day
> and i thought that one could have a lang. with just /k/ and /a/
> words being something like 'a' 'ka' 'ak' 'kak' 'kka' 'akk' 'kaa' 'aak'
> with a finnish like pronounciation.
> so a sentence would run like
> ka a ak k akkak akk.
> 1.sing subj.mark 2.sing obj.mark hit prs.mark
> i hit you
> lol
> sorry i was just thinking how odd this language would sound.
>
>
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:02:00 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
--- In [email protected], Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>okay while i was reading the various posts i thought to myself that
>the most obvious combination of consonant+vowel would be 'ka'
>and oddly enough the first person to give and example of syllable
>stucture used 'ka' so i was wondering what the first combonation of
>con+vow that came to mind for everyone would be. would it be 'ka'
>'te' maybe or 'po'? it is kinda interesting to seee what everyone
would put down as their choice pair
If I understand correctly what is being asked, I should think that the
most obvious first combination of consonant + vowel would be "ma" /mA/.
Is this not the first syllable uttered by a child in many cultures?
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:24:17 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
For me it is indeed 'ka'. Kind of like how most people think first of
carrots when challenged to think of a vegetable. --larry
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:27:19 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
Watch gmail reply-tos.
That might work. I've noticed that even in unrelated languages e.g.
Mandarin Chinese and English, the words for "mother" are fairly
similar and almost always contain an "m".
On a side note, this could be an indicator of the existence of a
"proto-world" language. According to Wikipedia, this language would
mostly contain common needs and aspects of life that apply in all
parts of the world. One's mother would fall under this category.
On 11/29/05, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Reilly Schlaier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >okay while i was reading the various posts i thought to myself that
> >the most obvious combination of consonant+vowel would be 'ka'
> >and oddly enough the first person to give and example of syllable
> >stucture used 'ka' so i was wondering what the first combonation of
> >con+vow that came to mind for everyone would be. would it be 'ka'
> >'te' maybe or 'po'? it is kinda interesting to seee what everyone
> would put down as their choice pair
>
> If I understand correctly what is being asked, I should think that the
> most obvious first combination of consonant + vowel would be "ma" /mA/.
>
> Is this not the first syllable uttered by a child in many cultures?
>
> Charlie
> http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
>
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:04:15 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary (changes)
After sending, I realized I'd omitted an important phrase:
> > Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.... >
> Kash:
> te manomo mariyaye, iyale yandin çehamala....
Should be:
te manomo mariyaye, londo praleleñ, iyale yandin çehamala....
londo 'full', leleñ '(ethical) goodness, righteousness' (pra- 'honorific')
Also, I've decided that "yemoni parumalti" 'fruit of thy womb' sounds
un-Kash. _Yemo_ are the product of plants, they're sweet and juicy and are
eaten, and the words seems not to be used figuratively... (Sometimes the
Kash can be so literal-minded.) Therefore that line ought to be:
..i prakarona parana alo parumaliti, Yesu...
and HON-blessed HON-child from HON-womb-gen.-your
Revised version:
te manomo mariyaye, londo praleleñ, iyale yandin çehamala. Prakarona hat alo
yuno kaçumili, i prakarona parana alo parumaliti, Yesu.
Mariya prakarona, parinde çehanga, pakrimaçemaka uçombim, tayanju i ri aroni
akorembim. endo sañ.
[tema'nomo ma"ri(j)a'e, 'londo.pra'lElEN, (?)i'jale 'jandin "Sexa'mala.
praka'rona 'xat (?)alo"juno"kaSu'milji ?i.praka'rona pa'rana alo
"paruma'liti 'jesu.
ma'ri(j)a"praka'rona, pa'rindeSe'xaNga, pa"krima'Semaka.u'Sombim,
ta'jandZu(w)iri(j)a'roni"(j)ako'rEmbim. "?Endo'saN]
The final stress on [ma"ri(j)a'e] is a little anomalous (ordinarily would be
[mari'(j)ae])-- but it's (a) a vocative and (b) a colloquial touch. There
should also be a [?] between parana and alo, but I can't get it to print
right, here. (And I'm not sure [lj] is correct (C)XS for a palatalized [l],
but you get the idea.)
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:29:21 +0000
From: Jonathan Knibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
Tom wrote:
>"Topic", also, I meant in the strictly non-technical sense, of "what the
>text is about". The sentence "Your name is Jonathan" is about your name.
My difficulty is in distinguishing this use of 'about' from the
given/new axis. Can given information occur other than within
the topic, and can information be new when it is a topic?
Of course a topic is new in the sentence where it is first
introduced into the discourse - but can it be a topic *in that
sentence*?
best,
Jonathan.
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:33:16 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Back on the turf!
Hallo!
After an unsuccessful adventure called Linux system upgrade,
I am back on the turf. What the whole matter taught me the
hard way were these two lessons:
1. Never change a running system.
2. Don't think new software will work with old hardware.
I ruined an entire weekend trying to get a recent Linux
distribution to work on my 5-year-old machine; after giving
it two more tries I decided to dig out the old installation
CDs and re-install the old system which took me less than
two hours to get it to work.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 11
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:48:34 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
Hi!
Jonathan writes:
> Tom wrote:
> > "Topic", also, I meant in the strictly non-technical sense, of "what
> > the text is about". The sentence "Your name is Jonathan" is about
> > your name.
>
> My difficulty is in distinguishing this use of 'about' from the
> given/new axis. Can given information occur other than within the
> topic, and can information be new when it is a topic? Of course a
> topic is new in the sentence where it is first introduced into the
> discourse - but can it be a topic *in that sentence*?
I think it can't. If it's information that is newly introduced, it's
not the topic. Of course, one must define 'new' correctly: 'new' does
not mean 'first mentioned in the conversion'. You can start with
'Hi! My name is Jonathan' and still, 'my name' is not new information.
However, 'Jonathan' would be new information, here.
Closely analysing Japanese sentences helps to understand how exactly
topics work, because it is explicitly morphologically marked. Also,
German also has a strict notion of topic that is very similar to that
of Japanese. It is not morphologically marked, but syntactically and
with (lack of) emphasis.
E.g. distinguish:
a) What's your name? My name is Jonathan.
b) Who's name is Jonathan? My name is Jonathan.
In the answer in a), 'my name' is the topic. In b), 'Jonathan'
is the topic.
He's another older post about the distinction of focus, emphasis,
and topic:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0312B&L=conlang&D=0&P=40579
**Henrik
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Message: 12
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:09:52 -0500
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:48:11 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>wonderful experience. I hope some day I can record some of my
>Senjecan translations. I don't yet know how to do that.
I hope so. Actually, I cannot imagine how to pronounce all those sounds like
l_0 and r_0. I know now how to pronounce m_0, though.
Carsten
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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:07:09 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Proto-World (was Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds))
Your Gmail is incorrectly configured. It's apparently possible to
correctly configure it now.
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:27:19 -0500, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On a side note, this could be an indicator of the existence of a
> "proto-world" language. According to Wikipedia, this language would
> mostly contain common needs and aspects of life that apply in all
> parts of the world. One's mother would fall under this category.
I rather think it's more down to the ease of pronouncing /mA/ ~ /m@/ than
the believability of the suggestion that over 120000 years of sound
changes would have left the initial /m/ in place in that one word while
doing all kinds of things to it in other words.
Not that I disbelieve in Proto-World. I rather suspect it was a neccessary
part of _homo sapiens'_ life to have a language. I doubt the continuity of
tool design and cultural items would have been possible on a "learning by
watching" basis.
The language would not "contain" only the stuff that was common to all
cultures (how would they know, in advance, which roots would be common
120000 years later?), but it's rather the case that only terms that are
common to all cultures (+/- the small matter of semantic drift) would be
universally reconstructable, and thus in any real sense "provable" as part
of the language.
Paul
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Message: 14
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:48:22 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
Hi!
Jörg writes:
>...
> After an unsuccessful adventure called Linux system upgrade,
> I am back on the turf. What the whole matter taught me the
> hard way were these two lessons:
>
> 1. Never change a running system.
So you did not know this??? :-)))
> 2. Don't think new software will work with old hardware.
>
> I ruined an entire weekend trying to get a recent Linux
> distribution to work on my 5-year-old machine; after giving
> it two more tries I decided to dig out the old installation
> CDs and re-install the old system which took me less than
> two hours to get it to work.
I am going to wait for a new Linux-on-laptop adventure until I have a
new machine because I fear exactly this will happen to me, too...
My four-year-old machine is slowly decaying: the fan is out of order
since years, but works when merciless injecting oil spray from time to
time... And recently the back-light started to become red. Needless
to say, the second battery is broken.
I hope it will stay alive for a few weeks.
**Henrik
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Message: 15
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:26:09 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Baby speech
So my baby's speech has a curious feature - he is apparently unable to
pronounce final /r/ (presumably [r\] or similar; American English...).
But rather than speaking non-rhotically, he seems to feel the need to
substitute something there, because he hears us saying something, and
what he puts there is a glide [j]. For instance, "car" comes out
[koj] - why [o], I don't know. The word "door" is [doj], which is
more understandable. And "water", which ends in a consonantal [r\]
the way we pronounce it, he pronounces with a final [i] instead. I
find all this fascinating, if just a tad disturbing on the
developmental front. Has anyone heard of such substitutions before?
I guess it's live evidence of /r/'s status as a glide in rhotic
Englishes.
Oh, and GMail has added the ability to send email as another account,
once you verify that the other account is actually you, and as part of
this identity revamp you can apparently finally leave the Reply-To:
header off completely. I'm trying to do that with this message, so
let's see if it works.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 16
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:51:24 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hail Mary
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:48:11 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>wonderful experience. I hope some day I can record some of my
>>Senjecan translations. I don't yet know how to do that.
--- In [email protected], Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I hope so. Actually, I cannot imagine how to pronounce all those
>sounds like l_0 and r_0. I know now how to pronounce m_0, though.
I had an interesting experience with m_0. I began Senjecan by using
a "w" for this phoneme, beause I wanted an unvoiced bilabial. Then
I realized that the unvoiced phoneme also needed to be nasal. So I
went to "w^" (U+0175), then to "m^," then to "µ," then to the Anglo-
Saxon wynn (U+01BF) (looks rather like a snooty "p"). But as I was
reading text, for some reason, I could never recognize the phoneme
from the grapheme I was using! I finally went to the IPA "m with
hook" and voilà, that was the key. Now I can breeze through a text
without faltering. The grapheme looks like an "m" but with a bit of
a difference (U+0271). Weird, huh? The only drawback is that it is
not found in the Comic sans MS font which I like very much, so my
text is always sprinkled with Lucinda "m's." The same problem
exists with "c with curl" (U+0255) and "z with curl" (U+0291) that I
use for /ts)/ and /dz)/ respectively.
I also had trouble learning j_0. It sounds so much like an "h." I
finally taught myself to form carefully the /j/ with my lips and
tongue, then move on to the vowel. It sounds rather like an "h" but
the lips are in a different position, the position for /i/. I have
read that some phoneticists consider "h" to be an unvoiced vowel.
The lips take the position of the vowel to follow. When pronouncing
j_0 one must put the lips in the /j/ (/i/) position and exhale
voicelessly, then reform them to pronounce and voice the following
vowel. I use "h with bar" for this phoneme to remind me of what it
sounds like and what it doesn't sound like.
I have written a history of the Senjecan orthography with dates and
places of the adoption of the various graphemes. Unfortunately, I
can't present it to the list because so many of the graphemes are
not reproducible in the list. And I use charts.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 17
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:18:38 -0600
From: Herman Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: i just noticed (was fewest sounds)
Reilly Schlaier wrote:
> okay while i was reading the various posts i thought to myself that the
> most obvious combination of consonant+vowel would be 'ka'
> and oddly enough the first person to give and example of syllable
> stucture used 'ka' so i was wondering what the first combonation of
> con+vow that came to mind for everyone would be.
> would it be 'ka'
> 'te' maybe
> or 'po'?
> it is kinda interesting to seee what everyone would put down as their
> choice pair
>
⪠na naaaaaa na na na na naaa naaa naaa na naaa naaa na naaa naaa.... âª
(just because I can't get that å¡é music out of my head!) Other choices
would be "la" (fa la la la laaa, la laa laa laaaaa) or "ta". Alveolar
sounds seem to be easier to produce rapidly than velar ones.
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:28:29 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A more challenging poetry translation challenge
> >She by the river sat, and sitting there,
> >She wept, and made it deeper by a tear.
>
Kash:
riyan ri vori yakuka ri vorani,
leñaña, i vorini çunuro yam mesa leñani
['rijandri'Bori ja'kuka "riBo'rani
le'JaJajBo'riniSu'nuro jam'besale'Jani]
riyan ri vori ya-kuka ri vora-ni
there LOC river 3s-sit LOC side-its
leñaña i vori-ni çu-nuro yam mesa leña-ni
weep and river-def INCH-deep with one tear-her
Sort of: There at a river she sat beside it,
weeping, and the river became deep(er) "with" one tear.
Well it mostly scans, and rhymes (though badly by Kash standards), and we
got round the "by" problems....(use of comitative yam 'with' is probably
idiomatic :-))) Possible alternate: riyun 'there (yonder, far)' instead of
riyan 'there (near)'.
In other Kash postings, I've often forgotten to indicate that "v" is [B]
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:54:36 -0600
From: "J. K. Hoffman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
Henrik,
Even laptop hard drives are cheap right now, so, I'd say, just change
out the hard drive and run an install. If it works with all your
hardware on a fresh install, you should be good to go.
Just a very non-linguistic thought!
Good luck
Jim
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:48:22 +0100
> From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
>
> Hi!
>
> Jörg writes:
>
>>>...
>>> After an unsuccessful adventure called Linux system upgrade,
>>> I am back on the turf. What the whole matter taught me the
>>> hard way were these two lessons:
>>>
>>> 1. Never change a running system.
>
>
> So you did not know this??? :-)))
>
>
>>> 2. Don't think new software will work with old hardware.
>>>
>>> I ruined an entire weekend trying to get a recent Linux
>>> distribution to work on my 5-year-old machine; after giving
>>> it two more tries I decided to dig out the old installation
>>> CDs and re-install the old system which took me less than
>>> two hours to get it to work.
>
>
> I am going to wait for a new Linux-on-laptop adventure until I have a
> new machine because I fear exactly this will happen to me, too...
>
> My four-year-old machine is slowly decaying: the fan is out of order
> since years, but works when merciless injecting oil spray from time to
> time... And recently the back-light started to become red. Needless
> to say, the second battery is broken.
>
> I hope it will stay alive for a few weeks.
>
> **Henrik
________________________________________________________________________
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