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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
From: Jonathan Knibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. LLL Monthly Update #11/2005
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: fewest sounds?
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Baby speech
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. OT: Wedding
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: OT: Wedding
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: OT: Wedding
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Shreyas Sampat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: OT: Wedding
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. How to name the languages of sentient beings?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: How to name the languages of sentient beings?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:30:51 +0000
From: Jonathan Knibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
Thanks Henrik, that's very helpful.
The 2003 post you cite distinguishes very clearly between focus, emphasis
and topic,
although it doesn't actually mention the given/new distinction. Perhaps I've
been confusing
two concepts of newness:
(1) a new referent, a concept not previously active in the discourse; and
(2) new information, a link between two concepts which is new to the
listener (i.e. the new
application of a predicate to a subject). Typically at least one of
these concepts is
not new(1).
So, when you said:
>If it's information that is newly introduced, it's not the topic. Of
>course, one must define 'new' correctly: 'new' does not mean 'first
>mentioned in the conversion'.
... you were using new(2), and I think you are right in saying this. There
remains however
the question of whether a topic(alised referent) can be new(1). My suspicion
is that the
answer to this question is also 'no'.
A topic must of course always be introduced somehow, in English often using
the phrase 'You
know X? Well,...'. Often the speaker is perfectly well aware that the
listener 'knows' X,
and the phrase is used simply to introduce a new topic into the discourse.
If X is analysed
as the topic in this context, it would constitute a counterexample to my
conjecture; I
would find it difficult to argue that any other part of the sentence ('you',
for example)
should be analysed as the topic. Maybe this construction is simply
topicless.
Hmmm.
ObConlang...
Henrik wrote:
>a) What's your name? My name is Jonathan.
>b) Who's name is Jonathan? My name is Jonathan.
>In the answer in a), 'my name' is the topic. In b), 'Jonathan'
>is the topic.
T4 would say (in very schematic paraphrase):
a) name-belonging-to-me Jonathan.
b) person-having-name-which-is-Jonathan me.
...with a zero copula in each case. The way I think of this is:
(1) T4 tries to get as much of the 'given' information as possible into the
first half of
the sentence.
(2) The assertion of the existence of the referent of each half should not
itself convey
new information [in sense (2)] to the listener.
Thus, (a) entails 'There is a name belonging to me.' = I have a name.' and
'Jonathan
exists.', and (b) entails 'There is at least one person called Jonathan.'
and 'I exist.'
Each of these sentences must be unsurprising to the listener (to the best of
the speaker's
knowledge) for the whole utterances (a) and (b) to be pragmatically
appropriate.
Jonathan.
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:32:37 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
Hallo!
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Jörg writes:
> >...
> > After an unsuccessful adventure called Linux system upgrade,
> > I am back on the turf. What the whole matter taught me the
> > hard way were these two lessons:
> >
> > 1. Never change a running system.
>
> So you did not know this??? :-)))
Of course, I *did* know. But there are instances when one
does want to change a running system. There were a number
of things (Firefox, OpenOffice 2.0, etc.) I wanted to add
to my system, and I thought that installing an all-new
system was a good way of doing that. I was dead wrong.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:51:08 +1300
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
Version 3.0 of IPA Zounds is now available. IPA Zounds is a sound
change applier that understands the IPA. Using a modifiable binary
features model, input words and rules can be written using IPA
characters (or X-SAMPA or other scripts with a user-defined mapping to
the IPA) and/or the distinctive features of the model. So, for
example, a rule to lengthen any vowel before a final voiced
postalveolar fricative would be written as:
[+syllabic]/[+long]/_Ê#
With an input of "baÊ", the output word is "baËÊ". The model
automatically maps features to IPA characters and necessary
diacritics: the rule [-voiced]/[+voiced]/[+voiced]_[+voiced] means
that "antla" becomes "andla".
There is also a reverse applier that derives possible source words for
a lexicon, restricted by syllable shape.
IPA Zounds has both a GUI and a command line interface, and can also
be used programmatically by other Python scripts. It runs on any
platform that supports the Python programming language (the GUI also
requires GTK), which includes GNU/Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows. Full
documentation in HTML format is included in the download.
IPA Zounds is available at http://zounds.artefact.org.nz/
An online demo is at http://zounds.artefact.org.nz/demo/
If you run into any bugs or problems (some people have had trouble
installing the dependencies for the GUI), please contact me at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Major changes in 3.0
* The addition of a reverse applier.
* Conversion between IPA and X-SAMPA and user-defined scripts, for
both input and output. This means you can use X-SAMPA or your own
orthography to write the rules and lexicon, rather than Unicode
IPA characters.
* Updated the binary features model to include a delayed-release
feature to model affricates.
--
Artefact Publishing: http://www.artefact.org.nz/
GnuPG Public Key: http://www.artefact.org.nz/people/jamie.html
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:42:36 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: LLL Monthly Update #11/2005
Hallo!
Another month has passed, and - nothing went on in the
lostlangs mailing list in November.
Greetings,
Jörg.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:16 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fewest sounds?
--- In [email protected], Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Ooh! Make the two phonemes be one audible segment and one silence. I
> *like* it. I like it a lot.
>
> Paul
>
Scene springs to mind:
Al sits silently for an hour.
Bert turns to him and says, "Would you _please_ shut up?"
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:31:50 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
On 11/25/05, Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/25/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Charlie wrote:
> > > I meant to write, "I doubt that RHYME will work."
> > The same in Kash, generally, though by varying word order you might
> > occasionally get a true rhyme. Otherwise, as in e.g. Spanish it would
> > involve repeating grammatical material like endings and suffixes--
> > boooooring. IIRC Spaniards feel that's too jingly, and Kash agree.
> Huh! I had thought that by putting Elomi's grammar class marker at the
> head of the word instead of the tail, I was sadly reducing the rhyming
> that could be done. But if what you say about Spanish rhyme is
> correct, then Elomi may actually be in better position for interesting
> rhymes, rather than worse. The Elomi Poet Laureates would be in better
> position to say, however.
Some of the earliest Esperanto poetry had this kind
of problem -- rhyming on affixes and grammatical
endings -- but poets pretty early on decided this
was a bad idea; most rhyming Esperanto
poetry rhymes on at least two final syllables,
the first of which can't be an affix, or elides
the -o noun ending and rhymes on the final
syllable of the truncated words, or (occasionally)
rhymes on the penultimate syllable of each
line _but not on the final syllable_.
I haven't done much with poetry in gzb yet;
I figure it will mostly involve alliteration
rather than rhyme when I get to it. I composed
a short alliterative poem in the shower one
morning in gzb, but forgot it before I could
write it down -- maybe it will come back later.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/gzb.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:02:52 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Haiku Translation - Piercing Chill
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:26:34 -0500, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Charlie wrote:
>> >I have not yet worked with poetry in Senjecan. I doubt that poetry
>> >will work. I'll probably have to go with syllabification,
>> >alliteration and assonance.
>>
>> I meant to write, "I doubt that RHYME will work."
>>
> The same in Kash, generally, though by varying word order you might
> occasionally get a true rhyme. Otherwise, as in e.g. Spanish it would
> involve repeating grammatical material like endings and suffixes--
> boooooring. IIRC Spaniards feel that's too jingly, and Kash agree.
I have the same problem with Thagojian: most of the morphology is
suffixes, so rhyming is not a very high form of art. I've settled on
alliteration and syllable repetition, placed within a limited number of
metrical shapes -- this seems to have been the way things were done in the
oldest Germanic, Vedic and Greek poetry, and thus is a likely candidate
for the PIE model.
I started translating Beowulf, but I appear to have completely lost all of
my notes, except a GIF of the first line in the Demotic script, which I'm
having trouble reading. As I recall, though, it was a near-perfect example
of what I was trying to achieve. I'll pore over it a bit and see if I
can't transcribe it properly. Part of the problem with Demotic is that
it's rather imperfect, which is aesthetically interesting, but makes it
rather hard to read properly.
Paul
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:12:59 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: THEORY: Information Structure; Topic/Comment, Focus/Background,
Given/New.
--- In [email protected], Jonathan Knibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Henrik, that's very helpful.
>
> The 2003 post you cite distinguishes very clearly between focus,
emphasis
> and topic,
> although it doesn't actually mention the given/new distinction.
Perhaps I've
> been confusing
> two concepts of newness:
>
> (1) a new referent, a concept not previously active in the
discourse; and
> (2) new information, a link between two concepts which is new to
the
> listener (i.e. the new
> application of a predicate to a subject). Typically at least
one of
> these concepts is
> not new(1).
>
> So, when you said:
>
> >If it's information that is newly introduced, it's not the topic.
Of
> >course, one must define 'new' correctly: 'new' does not
mean 'first
> >mentioned in the conversion'.
>
> ... you were using new(2), and I think you are right in saying
this. There
> remains however
> the question of whether a topic(alised referent) can be new(1). My
suspicion
> is that the
> answer to this question is also 'no'.
>
> A topic must of course always be introduced somehow, in English
often using
> the phrase 'You
> know X? Well,...'. Often the speaker is perfectly well aware that
the
> listener 'knows' X,
> and the phrase is used simply to introduce a new topic into the
discourse.
> If X is analysed
> as the topic in this context, it would constitute a counterexample
to my
> conjecture; I
> would find it difficult to argue that any other part of the
sentence ('you',
> for example)
> should be analysed as the topic. Maybe this construction is simply
> topicless.
>
> Hmmm.
>
> ObConlang...
>
> Henrik wrote:
> >a) What's your name? My name is Jonathan.
> >b) Who's name is Jonathan? My name is Jonathan.
> >In the answer in a), 'my name' is the topic. In b), 'Jonathan'
> >is the topic.
>
> T4 would say (in very schematic paraphrase):
> a) name-belonging-to-me Jonathan.
> b) person-having-name-which-is-Jonathan me.
>
> ...with a zero copula in each case. The way I think of this is:
> (1) T4 tries to get as much of the 'given' information as possible
into the
> first half of
> the sentence.
> (2) The assertion of the existence of the referent of each half
should not
> itself convey
> new information [in sense (2)] to the listener.
>
> Thus, (a) entails 'There is a name belonging to me.' = I have a
name.' and
> 'Jonathan
> exists.', and (b) entails 'There is at least one person called
Jonathan.'
> and 'I exist.'
> Each of these sentences must be unsurprising to the listener (to
the best of
> the speaker's
> knowledge) for the whole utterances (a) and (b) to be pragmatically
> appropriate.
>
> Jonathan.
>
Hi, Henrik and Jonathan.
I was definitely not using "focus" the way the 2003 post in Conlang
to which Henrik referred was using it;
I was using it in the way(s) Thomas E. Payne's "Describing
Morphosyntax" and Anna Siewierska's "Person" used it.
So that post's "emphasis" was one type of the "focus" as I was using
it; diathesis was not.
For my purpose, "focus", as a facet of "information structure", was
particularly about picking out "the most important part" of the
utterance.
If we think of a clause as a scene, and the way we choose to word it
as the cinematography or photography, then I think diathesis
corresponds better to the camera-angle than to the focus.
Focus is more about what's in the foreground vs what's in the
background.
As for new(1) and new(2), I think I did state in my original post on
this thread that "new" meant "new, or new relative to the discourse,
or new relative to the 'given'". So, imo, that would cover both
new(1) and new(2).
----
The list accepted a post from me today, so maybe it will accept this
one too.
Homer's Iliad and Odyssey have many clauses in which the sea is
mentioned, sometimes as a core term, and sometimes as an oblique
adjunct.
The sea itself, when it is mentioned, is sometimes topical and
sometimes part of the comment; sometimes it is given information and
sometimes it is new information; and sometimes it is
foregrounded 'focused' information and sometimes it is backgrounded
information.
However, Homer almost never fails to mention, whenever he mentions
the sea, at least two of the following facts about it;
* the sea is wine-dark
* the sea is salty
* the sea is wet.
None of these facts is ever new; none of them is ever topical; none
of them is ever focal. They are always given, background, and
comment.
-----
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:39:51 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Baby speech
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, 23:26 CET, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> But rather than speaking non-rhotically, he seems to feel
> the need to
> substitute something there, because he hears us saying
> something, and
> what he puts there is a glide [j]. For instance, "car"
> comes out
> [koj] - why [o], I don't know.
In the '(stereo)typical' American English, the <a> in car I
guess is rather [A_O], making it [kA_O:r\].
> developmental front. Has anyone heard of such
> substitutions before?
"Tante Tarin tomma tutten, Lulja hat detotzt." instead of
"Tante Karin komm mal gucken, Julia hat gekotzt" (Aunt
Karen, come see, Julia has vomitted) -- an anecdote of my
mother about the little daughter of friends of friends. That
little girl noticed that her little sister has just
vomitted. Children develop the sounds not all at once. It's
natural somehow that sounds get replaced with other, similar
sounds. It was basically the same with my two younger
siblings ... My brother called me ["ta:[EMAIL PROTECTED] for example.
> Oh, and GMail has added the ability to send email as
> another account,
> once you verify that the other account is actually you,
> and as part of
> this identity revamp you can apparently finally leave the
> Reply-To:
> header off completely. I'm trying to do that with this
> message, so
> let's see if it works.
/me is still wondering about a username for his Gmail
account ...
Carsten
--
Keywords: baby_speech
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:38:28 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux (Was: Back on the turf!)
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, 23:48 CET, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Jörg writes:
...
>> 1. Never change a running system.
And never install some fancy window managers other than
boring Windows on Windows. Will only give you trouble.
> I am going to wait for a new Linux-on-laptop adventure
> until I have a
> new machine because I fear exactly this will happen to me,
> too...
I'm only willing to install Linux on this machine when I
should decide to buy a secondary hard drive. My system runs
with evil Windows XP Pro, but at least it is stable and
everything works. I miss the symlink from Linux, though.
> I hope it will stay alive for a few weeks.
Sounds like the hard disk problem I had with my old machine,
which was nearly 6 years old when it died: The main hard
disk stopped working.
Carsten
--
Keywords: linux
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:49:02 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Wedding
Dear fellow conlangers!
I married on last Friday. :-) Take a look:
http://www.theiling.de/ehe.html
To see the pictures, you need a username and a password, which
are <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
I formatted the login data as <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> so that the list
server does not show it to everyone but only to subscribed people.
Enjoy the pictures! :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:43:59 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
I had a nifty idea I thought I'd share in case anyone
cared to borrow it for their own conlang.
I learn best by example and analogy so when I look up
a word in a dictionary I like to have ready access to
a handful of sentence that use that word so I can see
how the word actually behaves in the wild.
To that end, I've written a program to create my
dictionary page and a sample sentence page from a
dictionary file and a corpus of sentences. It shows a
maximum of 20 sample sentences (number is adjustable)
for a given word and the newer sentences push older
ones out of sight as time goes on, so that the sample
sentences continue to represent the most current usage
patterns.
Here's what the hyperlinked Elomi dictionary (a work
in progress with a few bugs yet) looks like:
http://fiziwig.com/lexicon.html
--gary
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:34:21 -0800
From: Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
Emaelivpeith Gary Shannon:
> I learn best by example and analogy so when I look up
> a word in a dictionary I like to have ready access to
> a handful of sentence that use that word so I can see
> how the word actually behaves in the wild.
I agree completely with you! I wish more dictionaries had example
sentences. (I actually got started on the idea of at least one example
sentence per dictionary entry from HS Teoh, who was doing it for
Tatari Faran.)
> To that end, I've written a program to create my
> dictionary page and a sample sentence page from a
> dictionary file and a corpus of sentences.
I already have a working solution for the data format of my dictionary
that formats my example sentences, but I'd like to see how you did it.
It's always good to see multiple approaches to the same problem. :)
If you want to see my format, the dictionary is at
http://dictionary.arthaey.com or just the example sentences by
themselves at http://lexicon.arthaey.com/examples.html (or
http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/lexicon/examples.html if that
link isn't working).
I should probably cross-reference that latter URL against the
dictionary entries. Maybe interlinearize them, too...
> Here's what the hyperlinked Elomi dictionary (a work
> in progress with a few bugs yet) looks like:
> http://fiziwig.com/lexicon.html
Looks like a good start. Do you plan to add cross-reference links to
the rest of the dictionary?
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com/
(Gmail WARNING: watch the Reply-To!)
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:22:22 -0800
From: "David J. Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Wedding
Congratulations, Henrik! ~:D
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 01:53:19 +0000
From: Rodlox R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Wedding
>From: Henrik Theiling <>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: OT: Wedding
>Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:49:02 +0100
>
>Dear fellow conlangers!
hello.
>I married on last Friday.
congratulations.
I wish you a great many years of happiness and health together.
mazel tov!
have nice days, you both.
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:55:57 -0500
From: Shreyas Sampat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
Jamie Norrish wrote:
>Version 3.0 of IPA Zounds is now available. IPA Zounds is a sound
>change applier that understands the IPA.
>
Okay, this is awesome, but I'm not clear on how to get the GUI to work
under OSX. I'm *nix-naive! Can you explain?
- shreyas
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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:01:48 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Wedding
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:22:22 -0500, David J. Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Congratulations, Henrik! ~:D
I rather suspect that the Thagojians would borrow the Hebrew term, though
I'm not sure how they'd nativize it.
So, μαÏλ ÏÏÏ! /mazl tOf/ or possibly something like μαÏλ×ÏεÏ×Ï
ÏÏÏsÏ!
/[EMAIL PROTECTED]@p tOfup/
Paul
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:04:26 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hyperlinking a dictionary to a corpus
--- Arthaey Angosii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Emaelivpeith Gary Shannon:
<snip>
>
> I agree completely with you! I wish more
> dictionaries had example
> sentences.
<snip>
That looks nice. What is in the parentheses. I'm just
seeing square blocks like I don't have a necessary
font.
The first link to samples didn't work, but I got there
from the link on the dictionary page. It looks nice.
The thing that wouold concern me is where words might
have two or more slightly different meanings, or
perhaps there are two or more ways to use a particular
word. That would require at least a couple of
sentences in those cases.
Yes, I am planing to hyperlink all the Elomi words in
the dictionary, except the suffixes and prefixes.
--gary
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:28:30 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: How to name the languages of sentient beings?
What's a good word for the set of languages, nat and con, that are meant
for communication between sentient beings -- i.e. excluding computer
programming languages, data modelling languages, and so on, but including
languages for aliens, and unusually smart hamsters, and what-have-you?
"Human" languages is wrong, as is "natural". I'm rather at a loss.
Thanks,
Paul
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:17:36 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to name the languages of sentient beings?
On 11/30/05, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What's a good word for the set of languages, nat and con, that are meant
> for communication between sentient beings -- i.e. excluding computer
> programming languages, data modelling languages, and so on, but including
> languages for aliens, and unusually smart hamsters, and what-have-you?
>
> "Human" languages is wrong, as is "natural". I'm rather at a loss.
Maybe "people languages"? Or "sophont languages"?
("Sentient languages" doesn't quite work, though it suggests
an interesting story idea....)
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/gzb.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field
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Message: 21
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:45:47 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:51:08 -0500, Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Version 3.0 of IPA Zounds is now available.
I can't get to the download page for 3.0
Clicking the "the latest release is 3.0" link brings me to a page to
download 2.3
Am I failing to notice something?
**************
Strike that.
The zip itself is marked for 3.0, it's just the text of the page that says
2.3
Paul
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:11:13 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:45:47 -0500, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> The zip itself is marked for 3.0, it's just the text of the page that
> says 2.3
Right. I'm a moron. I can't get it to run.
I already have Python 2.4.1 and GTK 2.6.9a (both installed via default
settings), and I added pygtk-2.6.3 for Python 2.4 (again, via default
settings).
I ran "python setup.py install", and it seemed to work, but things don't
seem to work...
# begin script
C:\IPA Zounds-3.0>python setup.py install
C:\Python24\lib\distutils\dist.py:222: UserWarning: 'licence' distribution
optio
n is deprecated; use 'license'
warnings.warn(msg)
running install
running build
running build_py
running build_scripts
running install_lib
running install_scripts
# So far, so good, right?
C:\IPA Zounds-3.0>python ipa-zounds.py
python: can't open file 'ipa-zounds.py': [Errno 2] No such file or
directory
# I thought I understood that the install would make the scripts visible
from anywhere
C:\IPA Zounds-3.0>cd scripts
C:\IPA Zounds-3.0\scripts>python ipa-zounds.py
PyGTK 2.6 is not available; please install it.
# end script
At the moment the "PyGTK 2.6 is not available..." message appears, a
dialog pops up saying "Can't find libglib-2.0-0.dll" in what looks like
some kind of libpath. Now I *do* have libglib-2.0-0.dll, along with some
other useful looking dlls, installed inside a directory C:\Program
Files\Common Files\GTK\2.0\bin that is not listed as part of that search
path.
Where is this libpath set, since it's not configured via Windows
environment variables? Is it more likely to be a Python thing, a pygtk
thing, or an ipa-zounds thing?
I have a Linux box I can try this on, too. That feels like it might be
easier.
Paul
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:28:36 +1300
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
Paul Bennett writes:
> Right. I'm a moron. I can't get it to run.
No, I think it's Windows that makes life difficult for everyone.
> running install_scripts
> # So far, so good, right?
Yes.
> # I thought I understood that the install would make the scripts
> visible from anywhere
It *should* do, though that depends (on Windows) on the Python
installation setting the PATH environment variable - which it doesn't
do, apparently. You can add C:\Python24\Scripts or whatever the
directory is to the PATH, and that should work. I believe that the .py
extension is registered to be executable by the Python installer.
> Where is this libpath set, since it's not configured via Windows
> environment variables? Is it more likely to be a Python thing, a
> pygtk thing, or an ipa-zounds thing?
It's a Python thing. Try adding:
sys.path.append("C:\Program Files\Common Files\GTK\2.0\bin")
to ipa-zounds.py after the line "from threading import Thread". I hope
that helps matters.
It's disturbing that it didn't just work, though - when I was testing
it on a Windows box it all went fine after installing PyGTK and GTK.
I'm going to make a Windows EXE which bundles everything up early next
week - it's been requested by a few people, and should save on a lot
of these hassles. For now I can only apologise that it doesn't work
for you - I don't develop on Windows, and have limited access to a
Windows machine; once IPA Zounds works for me on that OS, I tend to
breathe a sigh of relief and stop using it.
> I have a Linux box I can try this on, too. That feels like it might
> be easier.
Almost certainly. But if you have problems with that too, let me know
- there I can probably be of more help.
Jamie
--
Artefact Publishing: http://www.artefact.org.nz/
GnuPG Public Key: http://www.artefact.org.nz/people/jamie.html
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:05:25 +1300
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
Paul Bennett writes:
> The zip itself is marked for 3.0, it's just the text of the page
> that says 2.3
Thanks for pointing that out - I can't believe I missed it when I was
updating (and then looking at) that page.
Jamie
--
Artefact Publishing: http://www.artefact.org.nz/
GnuPG Public Key: http://www.artefact.org.nz/people/jamie.html
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:15:52 +1300
From: Jamie Norrish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: IPA Zounds v3.0 released
Shreyas Sampat writes:
> Okay, this is awesome, but I'm not clear on how to get the GUI to
> work under OSX. I'm *nix-naive! Can you explain?
The first thing you need is X11 - the Install Mac OS X disc contains
an "Install X11" package, which should install what you need when
double-clicked.
Then use DarwinPorts to install PyGTK (which should drag in all its
dependencies, including GTK), and you should be set to run the
GUI.
If you have any troubles, let me know privately and I'll try to get
you through them. I've seen IPA Zounds working on a Mac, but I don't
use it myself, so it may take me a while to figure things out.
Jamie
--
Artefact Publishing: http://www.artefact.org.nz/
GnuPG Public Key: http://www.artefact.org.nz/people/jamie.html
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