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There are 24 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Systematic Word Relationships (Was: Arabic and BACK and a whole
lot of other things.)
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: wayne chevrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Bell
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Bell
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
From: è½¡è« <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: What defines a conlang?
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: Bell
From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Conlangs in music
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Systematic Word Relationships (Was: Arabic and BACK and a whole
lot of other things.)
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Away for a while
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Boiling Polysemy
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Conlangs gathering?
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Types of Possession
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:26:27 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Systematic Word Relationships (Was: Arabic and BACK and a whole
lot of other things.)
On 12/21/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Method, system, way of doing action:
> >
> > to fight -> martial art, fighting style
> > to program -> programming methodology
> >
> I added this as an enumeration since there are more
> than one system or method.
OK. I intended this as a way of deriving a
_general_ term for all such fighting styles,
programming methodologies, schools of conlanging,
etc. Maybe terms for specific styles, methodologies,
schools, etc. could be derived from that
general term with appropriate modifiers.
> > to get into NOUN, to put oneself into NOUN
> > (enlitigxi "to get in bed", etc.)
>
> This seems to fit this group, I think:
>
> V. From PREPOSITION.
> A. PREPOSITION To VERB.
> 1. Action to result in the position.
> a. within -> to enter
> b. aboard -> to board
That's similar, but what is different about the Esperanto
examples I gave (and others like "surtabligi",
"devojigxi", etc.) is that they incorporate a preposition
and an object of the preposition into a becoming-verb
or causative-verb.
> > > B. NOUN To NOUN.
> > > 2. General category of a specific
> instance.
> > > a. lake -> body-of-water
> > This can have a mnemonic value, but is not
> necessarily
> > productive. If I use the general-category affix or
> > vowel-pattern or whatever on a root meaning "dog"
> > does it refer to all members of genus Canis, all
> > members of tribe Canini, all members of family
> > Canidae, or something even more general (mammals,
> > vertebrates, animals; domestic animals; quadrupeds)?
> > I use this kind of affix in gzb but word defined
> with it
> > must be memorized, since the level of generalization
> is not
> > obvious.
>
> My intention was the very next level of abstraction,
> colloquially, so that apple->fruit as opposed to
> apple->mass-of-protons-and-electrons.
Even with the "very next level of abstraction"
the derivations would be idiomatic -- for instance
for one person lemon-GNR would suggest
"citrus fruit", to another just "fruit" in general.
> > A member of the same group
> > E.g. Esperanto sam~ano, kun~anto patterns
> > samlandano, samcxambrano, samdomano,
> > samlingvano, kunludanto, kunlaboranto...
> >
> > A member of a different group
> > alilandano, etc.
>
> I don't understand this one.
Each of these derivation patterns is of the form
( specifier prefix ) + ( root ) + ( person suffix ) + (noun ending)
So:
land-o : country
land-an-o : citizen, inhabitant
sam-land-an-o : inhabitant of the same country
ali-land-an-o : inhabitant of another country
The series with "kun~anto" uses the preposition
"kun" (with) and the active participle suffix;
it derives words meaning "someone one does VERB with,
in whose company one does VERB". So,
kun-lud-ant-o = someone one plays with
kun-verk-ant-o = someone one collaborates in writing with
kun-kant-ant-o = someone one sings along with
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/gzb/gzb.htm
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:26:09 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
--- è½¡è« <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There's a book called _Riddley Walker_ by Russell
> Hoban, who "has
> imagined a humanity regressed to an iron-age,
> semi-literate state--and
> invented a language to represent it", according to
> the back-cover
> blurb. Here's the first few sentences:
>
> "On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear
> and kilt a wyld
> boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel
> Downs any how there
> hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint
> looking to seee
> non agen. He dint make the groun shake nor nothig
> like that when he
> comee on to my spear he wernt all that big plus he
> lookit poorly. He
> done the reqwyrt he ternt and stood and clattert his
> teef and made his
> rush and there we wer then."
>
> More or less, I'm sure I've typoed it up a bit.
Language-smanguage. That's just someone poking fun at
Ozark English, or Appalachian.
Adam
Jin nifalud fistus todus idavi eseud adimpuudu ul isu fi aved niminchunadu pera
ul Dju peu'l medju djul provedu cumvi dichid: «Iñi! Cunchepijid ed nadajid il
virdjini ad junu huiju, ed cuamajuns ad si il Emanueli fi sñivigad ul Dju simu
noviscu.»
Machu 1:22-23
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:24:00 -0500
From: Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
On 12/21/05, Ph.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris Peters wrote:
> > For the sake of counterargument, I'd point to two languages
> > that started out as pure conlangs -- Esperanto and ASL --
> > but which I'd argue have crossed that border into becoming
> > true natlangs. After all, both languages are in relatively wide
> I guess I'd have to define a natlang as one which has native L1
> speakers who pass it on as L1 to their offspring, who then pass
> it on in turn to their offspring, etc. I know there are a few native
> speakers of Esperanto (some years ago there was a woman
> living here in Michigan who was a native speaker), but they
> all grew up in homes where the parents learned Esperanto as
> an L2. I don't know of any situations where the language is
> continually handed down as an L1. .....
There are a few, I believe, but third-generation native
speakers are a small proportion of the total.
>I don't know much about ASL, but
> I assume it's in a similar state.
Two of my cousins are third-generation bilingual in
ASL and English, having deaf grandparents on their father's
side. I expect there are a fair number of others in similar
situations. Since they have children now and their
grandparents are still in good health, I shouldn't
wonder if my baby first cousins once removed
will acquire ASL natively as well.
> > And the languages have both changed in significant ways
> > since they were originally put down on paper by those
> > creators.
> I've sometimes heard Esperanto speakers make this claim,
> but I've read some of Zamenhof's writings, and I can't think of
> any "significant" changes. Some minor ones perhaps, but I'd
> be interested in what you would consider "significant" changes.
There's no single major change, probably, but many
minor changes in lexicon and usage that add up to a noticable
difference.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:18:33 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
--- "Ph.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris Peters wrote:
> >
> > But I don't believe it's exactly that kind of a
> binary question.
> > For the sake of counterargument, I'd point to two
> languages
> > that started out as pure conlangs -- Esperanto and
> ASL --
> > but which I'd argue have crossed that border into
> becoming
> > true natlangs. After all, both languages are in
> relatively wide
> > use today, by societies of speakers who have no
> direct
> > association with Zamenhof or Gallaudet.
>
> I guess I'd have to define a natlang as one which
> has native L1
> speakers who pass it on as L1 to their offspring,
> who then pass
> it on in turn to their offspring, etc. I know there
> are a few native
> speakers of Esperanto (some years ago there was a
> woman
> living here in Michigan who was a native speaker),
> but they
> all grew up in homes where the parents learned
> Esperanto as
> an L2. I don't know of any situations where the
> language is
> continually handed down as an L1. So by this
> definition,
> Esperanto is still a conlang. I don't know much
> about ASL, but
> I assume it's in a similar state.
>
>
WHAT?!?!? ASL ws never a conlang as I'd define it.
ASL started life as a pidgin. It was formed when
speakers of various homebrewed American signed
languages (usually spoken by only one family to
communicate with their Deaf offspring and varrying
greatly in sophistication), Martha's Vinyard Sign
Language and perhaps other influences came together
under the influence of Gaulladett and his crew who had
laerned French Sign Language and produced the
beginnings of today's ASL. It was never consciously
invented.
ASL IS passed directly form parent to child when the
parents are Deaf users of ASL. If those children
happen to be Deaf as well the chain continues. There
are a good number of hearing people who learned ASL as
their L1 from DEAF parents (CODA's) whothen go on to
learn English as an L2 (often near simultaneously).
For Deaf children ASL is usually their L1 (few learn
lip reading/speach without the aid of their natural
language), but it may be learned from L2 speakers
under some circumstances.
Adam
Jin nifalud fistus todus idavi eseud adimpuudu ul isu fi aved niminchunadu pera
ul Dju peu'l medju djul provedu cumvi dichid: «Iñi! Cunchepijid ed nadajid il
virdjini ad junu huiju, ed cuamajuns ad si il Emanueli fi sñivigad ul Dju simu
noviscu.»
Machu 1:22-23
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:41:05 +0000
From: wayne chevrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
Adam Walker nevesht:
>
>--- è½¡è« <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > There's a book called _Riddley Walker_ by Russell
> > Hoban, who "has
> > imagined a humanity regressed to an iron-age,
> > semi-literate state--and
> > invented a language to represent it", according to
> > the back-cover
> > blurb. Here's the first few sentences:
> >
> > "On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear
> > and kilt a wyld
> > boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel
> > Downs any how there
> > hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint
> > looking to seee
> > non agen. He dint make the groun shake nor nothig
> > like that when he
> > comee on to my spear he wernt all that big plus he
> > lookit poorly. He
> > done the reqwyrt he ternt and stood and clattert his
> > teef and made his
> > rush and there we wer then."
> >
> > More or less, I'm sure I've typoed it up a bit.
>
>Language-smanguage. That's just someone poking fun at
>Ozark English, or Appalachian.
>
Actually, IIRC it is mostly phonetically written Kentish.
--Wayne Chevrier
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:05:05 -0800
From: Adam Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
--- wayne chevrier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Language-smanguage. That's just someone poking fun
> at
> >Ozark English, or Appalachian.
> >
> Actually, IIRC it is mostly phonetically written
> Kentish.
>
Then I guess Kentish, or a very similar dialect must
have been a strong influence on the formation of the
American dialects of the eastern mountain ranges.
Adam
Jin nifalud fistus todus idavi eseud adimpuudu ul isu fi aved niminchunadu pera
ul Dju peu'l medju djul provedu cumvi dichid: «Iñi! Cunchepijid ed nadajid il
virdjini ad junu huiju, ed cuamajuns ad si il Emanueli fi sñivigad ul Dju simu
noviscu.»
Machu 1:22-23
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:24:27 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Bell
My source for senjecan vocabulary does not have a word for "bell," as
in "ding=dong." Does anyone have a compound word for "bell" in his
conlang? For that matter, how do your conlangs say, "ding-dong"?
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:07:05 +0100
From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
Hallo!
Chris Peters wrote:
> As a relatively new member of this list, perhaps this topic has been covered
> in-depth before, so please forgive me if I'm retreading dead topics. But I
> have a question which may be more difficult than it first appears:
>
> What's the difference between a natlang and a conlang?
I'd say that a conlang is a language deliberately designed by
an individual or a (small) group; a natlang is a language that
evolved from another language during centuries of usage by a
community.
Greetings,
Jörg.
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:43:05 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bell
Charlie wrote:
> My source for senjecan vocabulary does not have a word for "bell," as
> in "ding=dong." Does anyone have a compound word for "bell" in his
> conlang? For that matter, how do your conlangs say, "ding-dong"?
>
Kash is based on onomatopoeia--
tañ [taN] sound of a large bell; andañ a large bell
tiñ sound of a small bell; etiñ a small bell; titiñ to ring (of a bell)--
it's marked (vi) in the dictionary, but ought to be (vi,vt)
You could probably say tiñ-tiñ, tañ-tañ or tiñ-tañ for "ding-ding,
ding-dong" etc.
A Carillon would be _kakambrandañ_ 'set of bells'; hand-bells (if they have
them) would be kakambretiñ; the set of tubular bells used by orchestras (if
they have them) would likely be: cindarinda tiñ 'musical-scale +bell'
And there probably ought to be also: tatañ to ring (a large bell, maybe
"peal"). There could also be causatives-- runditiñ, rundatañ?? 'to ring,
make ring (trans.)'-- but referring to things other than bells I think.
Somewhere in the to-do list is an expression for "to ring the changes" both
lit. and fig.
Probably deliberately IIRC, the words for 'hammer(ing)' are similar:
triñ 'light hammering, tapping', trañ 'heavy hammering' with similar
derivatives.
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:12:00 -0600
From: è½¡è« <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in fiction/movies
> > >Language-smanguage. That's just someone poking fun
> > at
> > >Ozark English, or Appalachian.
> > >
> > Actually, IIRC it is mostly phonetically written
> > Kentish.
> >
>
> Then I guess Kentish, or a very similar dialect must
> have been a strong influence on the formation of the
> American dialects of the eastern mountain ranges.
>
> Adam
I don't know much about English dialects (one of the reasons I'm not
in a good position to judge how much is the author's own invention),
but the book is set in England.
As for poking fun ... I didn't get that impression. It's a book that
seems to take itself very seriously. I haven't read it yet, probably
never will, so I may be wrong.
Anyway, I was just throwing that out there as an example of what gets
passed off as a conlang in popular fiction. The author probably isn't
responsible for the back-cover blurb, but *someone* decided that they
could sell it as a new language.
--
kutsuwamushi
(BEWARE OF REPLY-TO)
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:59:49 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:07:05 -0500, Jörg Rhiemeier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd say that a conlang is a language deliberately designed by
> an individual or a (small) group; a natlang is a language that
> evolved from another language during centuries of usage by a
> community.
This overlooks the pidgin/creole situation, where a complete language can
emerge more or less fully formed in a matter of a couple of generations
over a reasonably small (depending on your domain) group of people,
without much if any planning.
Also, there are natlangs that consist of a very diverse set of dialects
that are deliberately engineered, codified and koinized. Koine being the
obvious example, but if my brain isn't playing tricks on me, I seem to
recall Bahasa Indonesia kinda fits the bill, too.
It's a hard set to define. I'm tempted to go with the "second-generation
L1 speakers" thing, but that I suspect locks out dying or dead languages
going through a resurgence.
Paul
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:17:24 -0600
From: Chris Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
>From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>It's a hard set to define. I'm tempted to go with the "second-generation
>L1 speakers" thing, but that I suspect locks out dying or dead languages
>going through a resurgence.
>
Would you include Biblical Hebrew as an example of that? It's been
resurrected (pardon the overtones) and adapted for diverse situations that
it was not ordinarily used for. I'd consider that sort of
resurrection-adaptation a sort of "conlang-lite", so to speak.
:Chris
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:50:28 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What defines a conlang?
Paul Bennett wrote:
> Also, there are natlangs that consist of a very diverse set of dialects
> that are deliberately engineered, codified and koinized. Koine being
> the obvious example, but if my brain isn't playing tricks on me, I seem
> to recall Bahasa Indonesia kinda fits the bill, too.
Italian also fits the bill, being deliberately constructed from
the dialects of the Italian peninsula and Sicily.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:04:59 -0700
From: Scotto Hlad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bell
>From my perspective, I am curious how others have handled the question of
onomatopoeia in their conlangs in general. How do they develop in natlangs.
What prinicples could apply from the study of natlangs that could be applied
to the development of conlangs?
Thanks,
Scotto
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Mills
Sent: Thu, December 22, 2005 1:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Bell
Charlie wrote:
> My source for senjecan vocabulary does not have a word for "bell," as
> in "ding=dong." Does anyone have a compound word for "bell" in his
> conlang? For that matter, how do your conlangs say, "ding-dong"?
>
Kash is based on onomatopoeia--
tañ [taN] sound of a large bell; andañ a large bell
tiñ sound of a small bell; etiñ a small bell; titiñ to ring (of a bell)--
it's marked (vi) in the dictionary, but ought to be (vi,vt)
You could probably say tiñ-tiñ, tañ-tañ or tiñ-tañ for "ding-ding,
ding-dong" etc.
A Carillon would be _kakambrandañ_ 'set of bells'; hand-bells (if they have
them) would be kakambretiñ; the set of tubular bells used by orchestras (if
they have them) would likely be: cindarinda tiñ 'musical-scale +bell'
And there probably ought to be also: tatañ to ring (a large bell, maybe
"peal"). There could also be causatives-- runditiñ, rundatañ?? 'to ring,
make ring (trans.)'-- but referring to things other than bells I think.
Somewhere in the to-do list is an expression for "to ring the changes" both
lit. and fig.
Probably deliberately IIRC, the words for 'hammer(ing)' are similar:
triñ 'light hammering, tapping', trañ 'heavy hammering' with similar
derivatives.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:19:51 -0600
From: John Schlembach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlangs in music
Please do, as one John to another. ;-)
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:38:21 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
Someday I'll get back to conlanging instead of just exploiting y'all for
your linguistic expertise for other purposes. Honest!
Several calendars, starting with the ancient Egyptian, are solar with a
basic structure of 12 30-day months followed by 5 extra days called the
"epagomenae" (or "epagomenal days" in the boring English version). Later
revisions introduced the concept of leap years, in which there was a 6th
epagomenal day. My question is simple: what's the singular form of
"epagomenae"? Is it "epgaomena"? It looks Greek in origin rather than
Latin (although the -ae makes me suspicious; maybe it's a Latinization of a
Greek borrowing), and my Greek knowledge is pretty much limited to the
alphabet.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:03:32 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Systematic Word Relationships (Was: Arabic and BACK and a whole
lot of other things.)
--- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12/21/05, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Method, system, way of doing action:
> > >
> > > to fight -> martial art, fighting style
> > > to program -> programming methodology
> > >
> > I added this as an enumeration since there are
> more
> > than one system or method.
>
> OK. I intended this as a way of deriving a
> _general_ term for all such fighting styles,
> programming methodologies, schools of conlanging,
> etc. Maybe terms for specific styles,
> methodologies,
> schools, etc. could be derived from that
> general term with appropriate modifiers.
Ah, yes. I see. I'm thinking this goes in one
directiong as a single relationship (karate->fight)
but in the opposite direction it seems like an
enumaeration to me. One could also say that "Freanch"
is a "style" of "language", so I'm not sure how to
distinguish this from a regular subclass type of
enumeration.
> > > to get into NOUN, to put oneself into NOUN
> > > (enlitigxi "to get in bed", etc.)
<snip>
>
> That's similar, but what is different about the
> Esperanto
> examples I gave (and others like "surtabligi",
> "devojigxi", etc.) is that they incorporate a
> preposition
> and an object of the preposition into a
> becoming-verb
> or causative-verb.
So actually this is a combination of TWO wordsm,
rather than a direct derivation from a single word. I
hadn't added any of those types of relationships yet,
but they clearly need to be included.
<snip>
> > My intention was the very next level of
> abstraction,
> > colloquially, so that apple->fruit as opposed to
> > apple->mass-of-protons-and-electrons.
>
> Even with the "very next level of abstraction"
> the derivations would be idiomatic -- for instance
> for one person lemon-GNR would suggest
> "citrus fruit", to another just "fruit" in general.
On the other hand setting up this system for the use
of a person creating a lexicon for a conlang implies
that the conlang creator would set the precident. At
any rate, for each instance a standard would be
established either by usage or buy edict.
<snip>
>
> Each of these derivation patterns is of the form
> ( specifier prefix ) + ( root ) + ( person suffix )
> + (noun ending)
>
> So:
> land-o : country
> land-an-o : citizen, inhabitant
> sam-land-an-o : inhabitant of the same country
> ali-land-an-o : inhabitant of another country
Again, these look like compounds of multiple words
rather than derrivations from a single word. I haven't
started adressing those yet.
--gary
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 02:11:32 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Several calendars, starting with the ancient Egyptian, are solar with a
> basic structure of 12 30-day months followed by 5 extra days called the
> "epagomenae" (or "epagomenal days" in the boring English version). Later
> revisions introduced the concept of leap years, in which there was a 6th
> epagomenal day. My question is simple: what's the singular form of
> "epagomenae"? Is it "epgaomena"? It looks Greek in origin rather than
> Latin (although the -ae makes me suspicious; maybe it's a Latinization of
> a
> Greek borrowing), and my Greek knowledge is pretty much limited to the
> alphabet.
Quite a bit on Google (both the -ae and -al forms), but no etymology. Nor in
the online AHD (shame shame!!). Shorter-OED gives _epagomenic_ (< Gk.
epagomene: ['e:mera]) 'intercalary [day]'-- that's probably fem. sing. but
am not sure.... It would seem to be related to _epact_, which has something
to do with the same matter.
My Greek is non-existent, too; it appears to be an -omen(os/e:/on)
participle, and I'd suspect it must mean something like "inserted" or maybe
"left over", but I had no luck using the online dictionaries. We need Ray
B.!!!
My guess too would be that -ae is a latinization, < "dies ...." (plural);
the Lat. sing. would be epagomena, but in view of our doubts, maybe you
should stick to "epagomenal day..." (I don't know how one Anglicizes a
Gk. -men- participle, no ex. springs to mind-- well, there's phenomenon, but
that's a neuter.)
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:09:49 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Someday I'll get back to conlanging instead of just exploiting y'all for
> your linguistic expertise for other purposes. Honest!
>
> Several calendars, starting with the ancient Egyptian, are solar with a
> basic structure of 12 30-day months followed by 5 extra days called the
> "epagomenae" (or "epagomenal days" in the boring English version).
> Later revisions introduced the concept of leap years, in which there was
> a 6th epagomenal day. My question is simple: what's the singular form
> of "epagomenae"? Is it "epgagomena"?
Yes.
It looks Greek in origin rather
> than Latin (although the -ae makes me suspicious; maybe it's a
> Latinization of a Greek borrowing),
Spot on! It's a Latinized version of a Greek borrowing, which is quite
common practice in English. It is actually a passive participle in Greek
and is feminine because it agrees with the word for 'day' which, if
context is clear, can be omitted (or "understood"):
hai epagomenai [he:merai] = the intercalated [days]
singular:
he: epagomene: [he:mera:] = the intercalated [day]
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:43:13 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Away for a while
I'm going to go NOMAIL for a week, as of later today, but before I go I'd
like to say
analekdahilt Khristosmallbel
['&n&lek"d&hilt 'x4istos'm&l:"bel]
anal.ek.dah.i.lt Khristos.mall.bel
joy.ADJ.be.3p.imp Christ.holy.day
(Khristos isn't a "real" Khangaþyagon word, {Huna ¬= Narnia} but I borrowed
it from Greek for the occasion, assuming that the aspirated stop ->
fricative sound change had already occurred in 1st century Koine Greek)
Pete
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:46:40 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Boiling Polysemy
In the sentences
I boil water
I boil the kettle
I boil an egg
The kettle boils water
The kettle boils
Water boils
the word "boil" means something different each time. I'm thinking of having
more than one word for boil in Khangaþyagon, and having a bit of fun with
which sense I assign to each one.
Pete
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:27:13 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Conlangs gathering?
I'm starting a student group as a parallel org to my conlangs class at
Berkeley. (I'm teaching it again next seemester, assuming adequate
enrollment; I'll be doing it as a smaller-workload [1-2 unit, not 3-4]
hands-on bottom-up class, and cut out as much of the lecturey stuff as
I can.)
What this means is that I will have access to funding. Possibly major
funding, if the ASUC thinks it's worth it.
... so... Who would be interested in attending a conlangs convention
at UC Berkeley, if it were held sometime between now and June?
- Sai
P.S. My conlangs class videos from '05 are now on Google.
http://video.google.com -> search for 'conlangs'. Much spiffier than
the 'download the whole thing first' versions on archive.org, but
suffers from occasionally bad audioo/video sync. (Quality is otherwise
fine.)
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:29:18 +0100
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Types of Possession
Jim Henry wrote:
>I've recently thought of a system that's much simpler than
>that of gjâ-zym-byn or Ithkuil, but more specific than the vague
>Indo-European genitive. There are three genitive cases or
adpositions:
>
>1. equal (or coordinate) association
>2. subordinate, inferior association
>3. superordinate, superior association
>man-GEN2 rescue = the rescue by others of the man in danger
>man-GEN3 rescue = the rescue performed by the man of someone in
danger
Nice. So you would also use this distinction to disambiguate
"the fear of the wolf" - "la peur du loup"?
wolf-GEN2 fear, in which the wolf is feared
wolf-GEN3 fear, in which the wolf fears
In Calénnawn, I've been using the elative preposition _num_:
búhibu cor ðówba
fear GEN dog (no word for 'wolf' yet): the dog fears
búhibu num ðówba
fear ELAT dog: the dog is feared
René
Please watch the reply-to.
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:44:53 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another OT question: singular of "epagomenae"
On 12/23/05, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Spot on! It's a Latinized version of a Greek borrowing, which is quite
> common practice in English.
Was it borrowed first from Greek into Latin and then from Latin into
English, or was it borrowed directly from Greek into English but treated as
Latin?
It is actually a passive participle in Greek
> and is feminine because it agrees with the word for 'day' which, if
> context is clear, can be omitted (or "understood"):
> hai epagomenai [he:merai] = the intercalated [days]
>
> singular:
> he: epagomene: [he:mera:] = the intercalated [day]
Ah! In the original Egyptian calendar the epagomenal period was nameless
(although the individual days eventually acquired names), but by the time
the Copts adopted it the period was treated as a short 13th month named
"Epagomene:". That must have originated from referring to them as
"epagomenal [day] 1, epagomenal [day] 2", etc., which got re-analyzed with
"epagomenal" as the name of the month.
Thanks!
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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