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There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:28:44 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Well, it can be used for anything the makers thereof say it can.
Trademark is if anything more restrictive in most ways - eg I don't
know any way you can 'publicize' trademark like you can copyright (eg
under CC licensing). I'm not sure how much of the copyright is owned
by the last person who actually drew this version, vs others who
contributed the ideas for it...
But yeah, a vector-format design would be definitely superior. I can't
open .svg though; maybe the google flag vendors can though.
- Sai
On 12/24/05, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * Sai Emrys said on 2005-12-24 02:04:49 +0100
> > I'm considering getting an actual fabric-on-a-stick flag made (yay for
> > ASUC financing). I like the Babel-tower-on-sun design that AFAIK is
> > the consensus one, just wanted to see what the others were. Is there
> > somewhere I can get a high-res version of them?
>
> What we need is having the flag defined in a vector-format like svg.
> Then it can easily be rescaled to any size we were to need. I tried
> doing such a thing (attached) but it could be better as my inkscape-fu
> is sorely lacking.
>
> > Whose permission do I need to do this? (The flag is, presumably,
> > somebody's copyright...)
>
> The good thing about copyright in this case is that the flag can't be
> used for anything, willy-nilly. The bad thing with copyright is of
> course that the flag can't be used for anything, willy-nilly. Hmm. maybe
> trademarking it would be better.
>
>
> t.
>
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 23:48:14 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Sai Emrys wrote at 2005-12-23 17:04:49 (-0800)
> I'm looking through the 2004 threads about the Conlang flag design,
> and getting a bit lost.
>
> Could someone point me to what the major candidates were? Is there a
> side-by-side comparison page?
>
There _was_, at http://web.netyp.com/member/dragon/temp/conlangflag.htm
It's not there any more. The comparisons page and voting were handled
by Adrian Morgan, you could ask him if he kept copies of the designs
(you should be able to get his address out of the archives).
Otherwise, a number of the candidates can still be seen via the links
in the mails in which they were proposed.
> I'm considering getting an actual fabric-on-a-stick flag made (yay for
> ASUC financing). I like the Babel-tower-on-sun design that AFAIK is
> the consensus one, just wanted to see what the others were. Is there
> somewhere I can get a high-res version of them?
>
> Whose permission do I need to do this? (The flag is, presumably,
> somebody's copyright...)
The first Babel-on-sun flag was designed by Leland Paul, entered
here:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409A&L=CONLANG&P=R23504&D=0&I=-3
In the final version the shape of the tower is based on a design by
Jan van Steenbergen, first appearing here (#4):
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409A&L=CONLANG&P=R16519&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
The final version is this one by Christian Thalmann:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409B&L=CONLANG&I=-3&P=4922
The fact that this design was produced through a process of people
taking each other's ideas and modifying them suggests to me that the
design is supposed to be in the public domain (I don't recall any
specific license ever being mentioned). But it couldn't hurt to check
with the original designers.
taliesin the storyteller wrote at 2005-12-24 15:26:49 (+0100)
>
> What we need is having the flag defined in a vector-format like
> svg. Then it can easily be rescaled to any size we were to need. I
> tried doing such a thing (attached) but it could be better as my
> inkscape-fu is sorely lacking.
>
I started doing that too! I think I could have got it looking pretty
good, too, but actually it should be possible to do this
automatically. I'll see if I can accomplish anything...
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 04:07:54 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Tim May wrote at 2005-12-24 23:48:14 (+0000)
> taliesin the storyteller wrote at 2005-12-24 15:26:49 (+0100)
> >
> > What we need is having the flag defined in a vector-format like
> > svg. Then it can easily be rescaled to any size we were to need. I
> > tried doing such a thing (attached) but it could be better as my
> > inkscape-fu is sorely lacking.
> >
>
> I started doing that too! I think I could have got it looking pretty
> good, too, but actually it should be possible to do this
> automatically. I'll see if I can accomplish anything...
OK, how's this...
http://www.atqz73.dsl.pipex.com/misc/conlangflag.svg
Automatic tracing programs weren't quite as helpful as I'd hoped, but
it probably took less time than it would have by hand.
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 02:38:18 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 18:48:14 -0500, Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The final version is this one by Christian Thalmann:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409B&L=CONLANG&I=-3&P=4922
>
> The fact that this design was produced through a process of people
> taking each other's ideas and modifying them suggests to me that the
> design is supposed to be in the public domain (I don't recall any
> specific license ever being mentioned). But it couldn't hurt to check
> with the original designers.
Can I suggest, in the collaborative and open spirit of the design process,
one of the Gnu licenses? If there's a way to identify the list en masse as
the original authors (or somehow its membership as of the day of the
election), I think that would be fitting.
Paul
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 23:36:49 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
What format is .svg? I have Photoshop, and can't open it even in that...
As for copyright, it seems to me that the ultimate copyright is
Christian's, but I dunno. Have emailed him offlist. Thanks for the
pointer to Adrian; will email him to see if he's kept any of the
others. Of the ones I have seen, I like the current version best
anyhow :-P.
(Incidentally, it's not on archive.org either, foo.)
- Sai
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 23:53:29 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
> Can I suggest, in the collaborative and open spirit of the design process,
> one of the Gnu licenses? If there's a way to identify the list en masse as
> the original authors (or somehow its membership as of the day of the
> election), I think that would be fitting.
Might I counter-suggest the Creative Commons by-nc-sa license? More
appropriate to such a work, methinks.
- Sai
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 00:30:40 -0800
From: Kris Kowal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
On 12/24/05, Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What format is .svg? I have Photoshop, and can't open it even in that...
SVG is an 'XML' graphics format that was pioneered about half a decade
ago, and Adobe was actually one of the first companies to produce a
working version of it as I recall, but doesn't seem to be pursuing it.
Since then, the Open Sourcerers have taken it up so there's now a
free editor for it, Inkscape, and Firefox 1.5 displays them (and
allows you to fiddle with one with Javascript :-)). Inkscape is a
neat tool, basically a knock-off of Adobe Illustrator, with a simpler
interface and some interesting new features.
I drew up the word 'gaerdin' in Quenya with Inkscape's calligraphy
tools. I was very impressed with the tool set, which allows you to
parametrize your pen's width and angle as expected, but also by how
much to thin the line as you make a fast stroke, how much the angle
will fixate to the direction you are drawing, and the inertia and drag
of the pen to make your strokes smooth. Again, I was very impressed.
http://cixar.com/~kris.kowal/blog/art/inkscape-gaerdin.html
Kris Kowal.
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 08:45:56 +0000
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Sai Emrys wrote at 2005-12-24 23:36:49 (-0800)
> What format is .svg? I have Photoshop, and can't open it even in that...
>
Scalable Vector Graphics. You may be able to get a browser plugin
that'll let you display it. Photoshop isn't primarily a vector
graphics program, but you may be able to get a plugin for it too.
> As for copyright, it seems to me that the ultimate copyright is
> Christian's, but I dunno. Have emailed him offlist. Thanks for the
> pointer to Adrian; will email him to see if he's kept any of the
> others. Of the ones I have seen, I like the current version best
> anyhow :-P.
>
> (Incidentally, it's not on archive.org either, foo.)
>
> - Sai
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:04:02 -0800
From: Sai Emrys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Ooh, pretty. Will need to look into that. And hey, it does work in
Firefox - I was using IE at the time I wrote that (I normally use
Firefox even - doesn't work directly from an attachment though, oddly;
displays it as xml).
I note that there's a slight color difference between Tim and Paul's
versions, in the yellow/orangey part. Is it relevant? (I seem to
remember there being some discussion as to what the proper exact
shades were on the threads I saw... but I'm no heraldry expert.)
But - thanks for the vector version! Definitely better for scaling. :-)
Now to just get that copyright permission, and figure out where I can
get it done cheaply and well, and see if the ASUC will pay for it....
- Sai
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 20:39:19 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Conlang flag in actual cloth
Sai Emrys wrote:
>>Can I suggest, in the collaborative and open spirit of the design process,
>>one of the Gnu licenses? If there's a way to identify the list en masse as
>>the original authors (or somehow its membership as of the day of the
>>election), I think that would be fitting.
>
>
> Might I counter-suggest the Creative Commons by-nc-sa license? More
> appropriate to such a work, methinks.
Although I did not take part in its original design, I'd like to object
to the "nc" part of that licence. CC by-sa is essentially the same as a
GPL/GNU-style licence, more-or-less providing freedom restricted only by
the proviso that freedom may not be further restricted. In any case, I
hardly think anyone's going to try to abuse anyone's effort: The target
market is quite small and I expect anyone who starts out with it
commercially will probably be one of us, and try to give something back
to the community. And if, on the other hand, someone completely
unrelated to us *does* commercialise it in ways completely unrelated to
conlanging, who knows: maybe it'll act as advertising. I would therefore
recommend the CC by-sa licence, if a CC licence is to be chosen.
However, my real recommendation is the Free Art Licence (it's also the
one the FSF/GNU project recommend for art when the original GPL or the
GNU Free Documentation Licence are inappropriate). This would help avoid
confusion by the proliferation of CC licences. I think the wording and
theory behind the Free Art Licence is also more appropriate to the
creation as I understand it of the flag---but again, I wasn't active at
the time. Take a look at it:
<http://artlibre.org/licence/lal/en/>
(FWIW, it seems to me that the original, if it is the first babel-sun
design, is Leland Paul's at
<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409A&L=CONLANG&P=R23504&D=0&I=-3>
and that Christian's modifications count as a Subsequent Work.)
--
Tristan.
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