There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: counting things (was: Sound changes causing divergence...)
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: coins and currency
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. TECH: Changed email address
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: TECH: Changed email address
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:52:31 -0500
From: Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Hi Paul (Paul Bennett), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 5 you wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:33:49 -0500, Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In fact, I gather the Susan B Anthony dollar was originally supposed to
> > be a polygonal-shaped thing, to make it obvious by feel in ones pocket,
> > but the vending-machine makers complained that if the coin was not
> > going to be truly round, they'd have to redesign their machines... so
> > the currency people relented, and just added a polygon design onto one
> > face a regular, round coin.
> [snip]
> > I kind of wish we'd already started moving away from round coins at some
> > point *before* vending machines became common... Think of all the cool
> > shapes we coulda had for our coins!
>
> We have septagonal coins in the UK (not one, but two -- to whit: the Crown
> and the Double Florin), and vending machines plus all sorts of other
> coin-operated devices that work just fine with them. I don't buy the
> "vending machine" excuse for one minute. You can phase in support for the
> coins between their announcement date and their release date, and even
> after the release date.
The way I'd heard it -- and mind you, this was years and years ago -- it
wasn't so much that they couldn't change the machines to accomodate the
new shape, it was that they didn't want the *expense* of changing all
their machines to accomodate the new shape... just because somebody,
somewhere, said "What a nifty new shape, let's go with it!"
Had they actually gone and done it, it may well have turned out to be
easier and cheaper than they expected it to be, therefore making it Not
A Big Deal, but it was their *perception* of how much it would take to
do it that made them unwilling to accept it. Too often, perception
trumps reality and logic.
> Paul
--
Nomad of Norad (David C. Hall) --- *TeamAmiga*
[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://www.joshua-wopr.com/
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:47:36 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: counting things (was: Sound changes causing divergence...)
I wrote:
> This is not unlike the Indonesian/Malay system (and I think widespread in
> Asia). Only the words with se- 'one' are written as one word:
>
> se/ekor (tail) animals
> se/lembar (cloth) flat, sheet-like things
> se/buah (fruit) round things in genl; also, generic for almost everything
> nowadays (houses, cars...)
>
Further to this, here are the counters in Buginese (South Sulawesi,
Indonesia, about 3-4million speakers); these are from the 1875 grammar.
(e for schwa, é for [e])
For people: tau (person) (And I forgot Ml/Indon. orang, very important)
aju ~kaju for animals, also for pcs. of cloth
peppa? (reed sp.) for long thin things
paréwangang (equipment) for sets of things
bakkareng (open) for spreadable things like mats
batu (stone) for fruits, coconuts but also houses, chairs; generic?
bollo (pluck) for flowers
tenrong (hang on/down) for certain garments and personal ornaments
rutungeng (collapse) ??? for a necklace in the only ex.
labuwang (set) for bamboo fish-traps in the ex.
lampa? (sheet) for paper, sarongs, sheet-like things
lisé? (seed) for seed-like things, fruits, jewels (Ml/Indon.: biji for this)
olowang (prow) for boats
and a couple others where I can't make any sense out of the Dutch or the
exs. :-(((
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 01:28:10 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
Another case, perhaps, of ordinals that are not regularly relatable
(anymore) to the cardinal, my Gwr lang., which is monosyllabic and tonal.
The proto-lang. was mainly CVCV(C), and one could form adjectives with a
prefix *m-
one: ay (hi) < had, first fay (mid) < m+had
two: ni (hi) < hVní, 2nd di (mid) < m+(hV)ni
three: hr (lr) < hVqV[+str]r, 3rd gr, Nr or kr (undecided)
(four exists, but for some reason isn't in the dictionary yet...)
five; fifth: dzi (low) < dVsí
six: ho (hi) < qahú, sixth go, No, or ko
seven: shr (hf) *sí(dg)Vr, jr (m) seventh
(eight: fang (m), 8th pang (m) < Kash fanu)
(nine: sang (m), 9th tsang (m) < Kash sana)
ten (decimal, old octal): maq (h) < *kVmáC; baq (m) tenth
hundred (decimal) : loq (m), hundreth doq (m) < **rog < Kash roNgo
thousand (decimal, old octal) : chih (h) < *kitís, giq (m) thousandth (app.
< m+kítis
One might get the impression that not all sound changes have been worked
out....A project for dreary winter days.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:14:13 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
[snip]
>
> And then, of course, we've got the "euro." Sometimes it's called the
> "euro-dollar," even though it's not the same value as a US dollar.
Euros and Eurodollars are *not* the same thing!
Eurodollars are, in fact, deposits denominated in United States dollar
at banks outside the United States, and thus are not under the
jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve. They got the name 'Eurodollars'
because at one time such deposits were held mostly by European banks and
financial institutions. Now a days, such deposits are held in many
countries throughout the word, but the name 'Eurodollar' continues to be
applied to them, irrespective of where they are held.
Similarly, deposits of the Yen held outside of Japan and not under
Japanese jurisdiction may be called 'Euroyen'.
Nomad of Norad may have been misled in that prior to the introduction of
the euro within the European Union, traders in Eurodollars colloquial
referred to them as Euros. But because orally euro & Euro cannot be
distinguished, this practice is dying out.
===================================
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> ............. and I wasn't aware that the "cent" was
> Finnish currency. I only know markka and penni.
Gosh! Next you're be telling us they use francs & centimes in France!
:-)
(Yes - I know the euro-cent is often colloquially called 'centime', but
that's a different matter)
A large part of Europe now use (euro)cents, so we can expect a variety
of abbreviations, I guess.
=================================
Roger Mills wrote:
[snip]
>
> I spent a couple months in England in the olden days (back 52 yrs
ago!!, the
> pound was around $2.80) and was also confused by the guinea, though
on my
> budget it didn't much matter, and I eventually figured it out. (Is
the term
> still used? for L 1.10?)
The guinea was £1.05 in fact (one pound & one shillings; the latter is
five post-decimalization pennies, not ten).
Yes - it was traditional in some markets and trading places and
certainly prices continued to be shown in guineas for a time after
decimalization. But AFAIK the practice has now died out; after all,
while one could readily convert X number of guineas to the actual
currency (X pounds + X shillings), the post-decimalization value of 1.05
was not so convenient.
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:33:02 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TECH: Changed email address
Hello List,
Due to receiving massive spam and phish attacks (no less than 10 phish
mails/day with my virus scanner not letting me access my mailbox
anymore), I've deleted my address [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
now give GMail a try. So please, if you send offlist mails to me,
write to carbeck at Gmail, not to naranoieati at beckerscarsten.
Thanks,
Carsten
--
Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris.
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 07:57:08 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: TECH: Changed email address
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 06:33:02 -0500, Carsten Becker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Due to receiving massive spam and phish attacks (no less than 10 phish
> mails/day with my virus scanner not letting me access my mailbox
> anymore), I've deleted my address [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> now give GMail a try. So please, if you send offlist mails to me,
> write to carbeck at Gmail, not to naranoieati at beckerscarsten.
That reminds me. A couple of weeks ago, I changed mine, obviously to the
address I'm using now. If any of you had any reason to have me in your
addressbooks, you ought to update the entry.
Paul
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:11:15 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
I think a con-currency (there's a good pun there somewhere involving
multithreading, but I'm too sick to think of it) is an interesting
problem on its own, if more conculturing than conlanging. There are
competing goals: minimize the number of denominations, while at the
same time minimzing the number of coins needed to represent any given
vale.
In US currency, for instance, there are essentially 4 sub-dollar
denominations (1, 5, 10, 25), since half dolalrs are very rare. As a
result, some values require up to 9 coins (e.g. 94¢ and 99¢).
Reintroduction of a commonly-circulated half-dollar would cut that
down by one coin; a two-cent piece would reduce it by two more. That
would yield six denominations and a maximum minimum (:)) of six coins
per value.
Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:27:51 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:11:15 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> In US currency, for instance, there are essentially 4 sub-dollar
> denominations (1, 5, 10, 25), since half dolalrs are very rare. As a
> result, some values require up to 9 coins (e.g. 94¢ and 99¢).
> Reintroduction of a commonly-circulated half-dollar would cut that
> down by one coin; a two-cent piece would reduce it by two more. That
> would yield six denominations and a maximum minimum (:)) of six coins
> per value.
I'm sure you're aware of the British system, which is partitioned 1, 2, 5,
10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. I have a gut feeling that it's more
optimal than the US system of (essentially) 1, 5, 10, 25, 100, 500, 1000,
2000, which strikes me as more organic but less wieldy.
Of course, it shouldn't take much math to prove that the most optimal
system would have units of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc., provided of course
that the general populace could be made sufficiently familiar with the
concept.
Paul
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:47:15 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
staving Mark J Reed:
>I think a con-currency (there's a good pun there somewhere involving
>multithreading, but I'm too sick to think of it) is an interesting
>problem on its own, if more conculturing than conlanging. There are
>competing goals: minimize the number of denominations, while at the
>same time minimzing the number of coins needed to represent any given
>vale.
>
>In US currency, for instance, there are essentially 4 sub-dollar
>denominations (1, 5, 10, 25), since half dolalrs are very rare. As a
>result, some values require up to 9 coins (e.g. 94¢ and 99¢).
>Reintroduction of a commonly-circulated half-dollar would cut that
>down by one coin; a two-cent piece would reduce it by two more. That
>would yield six denominations and a maximum minimum (:)) of six coins
>per value.
For The Empire of Imegan (Mágikimnaz speakers)
1 Mágikimillund (Emperor-gold) = 30 Imeganrennadá (Imegan-silver)
1 Imeganrennad = 18 Gudmenandá (Loaf-bronze)
Before the fall of the Empire, 1 Gudmenand would buy a loaf of bread of a
standard weight. However, the currency was considerably devalued during the
War of Breaking, when the Empire collapsed.
The currency of the port of Lezera, (translated names only)
1 Galley = 12 Barges
1 Barge = 16 Skiffs
The currency of the Wavolar
1 Horse = 6 Foals
1 Foal = 5 Spears
1 Spear = 4 Horseshoes
The Wavolar mainly trade by barter, however, and issue currency mainly as
an expression of their independence.
The currency of the Jade Empire
1 Jade Crown = 25 Kingfishers
1 Kingfisher = 15 Spears
1 Spear = 8 Atlatls
A Jade crown is a jade disc an inch and a half across and 1/4 inch thick.
At original values, it is worth at least 10 Magikimillundá.
Pete
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:59:46 +0100
From: Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Hi!
"Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I think a con-currency (there's a good pun there somewhere involving
> multithreading, but I'm too sick to think of it) is an interesting
> problem on its own, if more conculturing than conlanging. There are
> competing goals: minimize the number of denominations, while at the
> same time minimzing the number of coins needed to represent any given
> vale.
I always liked the Russian coins when I was there some years ago:
among others, they had 3 and 15 kupecs coins. :-)
**Henrik
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:49:34 +0000
From: Peter Bleackley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
staving John Vertical:
>Neat stuff. Still, this does nothing to extend the cardinal/ordinal
>distinction to other numerals! They'll definitely get messed up too in all
>these sound shifts, but it would be unlikely that one series would turn out
>resembling the ordinals more than the cardinals, let alone contrasting the
>two as equally possible roots.
>OK, with lots of adjacent vowels now...
>(4) Sequences of adjacent vowels with the same roundedbackness develop into
>long vowels. Schwa matches with all series. The vowel is high (or low) iff
>all the originals vowels also are, else mid.
>And to stop this from being just "big" shifts, I think we should also allow
>one "small" (ie. affecting only a few of the words herein) sound shift per
>turn:
>(4.5) Immediately before stress, /tS dZ/ lenite to /S Z/ unless preceded by
>an alveolar continuant.
(5) Final e is lost, and final e: is shortened.
Value Cardinal Ordinal
1 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] i'we
2 'nero na'ru
3 'mjo: mi'u
4 'to: 'to:
5 'kin 'kink
6 'jesu ja'swe
7 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] Si'gwe
8 'dZuz2 Zo'ze
9 '[EMAIL PROTECTED] hi'je
10 'neo na'u
11 'hero ha'ru
12 'utsu ot'swe
20 naro'no: naro'no:
21 naronQ'[EMAIL PROTECTED] naronQy'we
22 narono:'noro narono:nQ'ru
30 mio'no: mionQ'u
31 naro'no:ro narono:'ru
32 naro'no:tsu narono:'tswe
33 miono:'mjo: miono:mi'u
>I also postulate words for 100, 1000 and 10000:
100 'tSifu Se'pwe (from tSepu tSepuke)
1000 'wegor wa'gurk (from wagor wagorke)
10000 Sun'tSyfu tSuntS2'[EMAIL PROTECTED] (from tSuntSepu tSuntSepuke )
We seem to have achieved complete irregularity of the ordinals by now, but
they're still recognisable cognates of the cardinals. I do quite like the
fact that two ordinals have become indistinguishable from their cardinals.
Pete
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:02:10 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006, 23:33 CET, Charlie wrote:
> Silly me! When Carsten used the expression "my 2 cts.
> worth" I
> assumed he was talking about American currency. It is an
> expression
> used frequently in the U.S. and I wasn't aware that the
> "cent" was
> Finnish currency.
Not only Finnish. Mind you, I'm German. From north to south
and east to west, the Euro is used in Finland, Ireland, the
Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France,
Andorra (I assume), Monaco, Italy, the Vatican City, San
Marino, Portugal, Spain and Greece. Also, the Euro is used
in the French overseas departments and territories (DOM-TOMs)
AFAIK.
> I only know markka and penni.
The Euro coins and bills were introduced on January 1, 2003,
but it has been used as a currency since 1999.
Cheers,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:01:45 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Andreas Johansson wrote:
> Here, they set prices so that you get values like 299.50
> SEK incl value added
> tax. Prices are normally given inclusive of VAT;
> exceptions include more
> expensive household electronics.
When I've been to Sweden in summer 2002 (Linköping area with
obligatory trips to Malmö, Stockholm and Gothenburg), I saw
prices like e.g. 23.59 SEK at petrol station's shops -- not
the petrol price, but the price of things such as beer or
ice cream or bread or whatever you can get in such shops. In
fact, the only coins they have in Sweden are 1 Krona and 50
Öre. You don't even get back your 50 Öre often.
As for getting rid of one and two pence pieces, I wouldn't
mind doing that here in the Euro zone as well. It's so
annoying that when buying something at a drug store, you
will ALWAYS get one cent change because *all* of their
prices are X.99 EUR. And then you've got half a dozen
pennies in your wallet and cannot get rid of them because
hardly anybody accepts them. The same goes for 2 cent
pieces. I also wouldn't mind to introduce a 5 Euro coin
because you very often get back a 5 Euro bill and the rest
in cash[1]. Back when we had the Mark, you didn't get back a 10
DM bill very often but rather two 5 DM coins[2]. There existed
5 DM bills (showing Bettina von Arnim), but they were quite
rare. What I had to get used to when the Euro was introduced
were the 20 cent coins so that you now had 0.20 as a value
in addition, but no 5 EUR piece.
Carsten
[1] Open wallet, take change, put in bill, turn wallet, open
pocket for coins, put in coins, close pocket, close wallet.
[2] Open wallet, take change, put in coins, close wallet.
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