There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: coins and currency
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: "James W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Fwd: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Dennis Paul Himes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. Re: coins and currency (was: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: coins and currency
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: coins and currency
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: coins and currency
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: coins and currency
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: coins and currency
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:11:35 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Roger Mills wrote:
>>Speaking of "dollar," what other common words could be used in place of
>>"dollar" as a word for the lowest non-change denomination in a given
>>culture's currency?
>>
>
> Well, on Cindu there's the taruna coin (slang truni); the Gwr call it tru
> ni; worth somewhat more than a dollar though I don't know the present
> exchange rate..... The currency is decimal. "Cent" is kurok (slang kroki) <
> kurongo 'hundredth'. There 50kr, 25kr, 10kr, 5kr and 1kr coins called resp.
> mekunjo or kronjo (< 'divide'), kroka (< 4), kropot (<10), kronim (<5) and
> kromi~krombi (< -mik 'little') or prangi (< 'zinc'). There are also 1 and 2
> truni coins, everything above that is paper.
The Fifth Empire Kassi's basic unit was the _khof_ (pl. kopein), which
was divided into 108 _salhech_ (sg. zalh). Historically, it was a bit
more complicated. 1 khof = 9 vazha, 1 vezh = 12 zalhech, but then it
was simplified by eliminating the vezh. There had been a plan to
duodecimalize (they use base-12), but it failed.
The khof is worth ~$8. Their smallest banknote (polymer) is the 3-khof,
and even that is more common as a coin.
Their currency is:
Coins
1z
3z
6z
12z
36z
1kh
3kh
6kh (uncommon)
12kh (rare)
Banknotes
3kh (uncommon)
6kh
12kh
36kh
72kh
144kh
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:04:09 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sound changes causing divergence of ordinals from cardinals
John Vertical wrote:
>> Weird that original /h/ sticks around, then.
>
>
> Indeed, better delete them intervocally too.
Yeah, I'd overlooked that.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:07:10 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Monetary units (was: Types of numerals)
John Vertical wrote:
> I dunno about hostility, but I can understand the annoyance. Imagine if
> you had one-thousandth coins instead; would you agree that minting those
> would be a complete waste of material and effort? You'd need dozens
> before you could spend them on anything.
> Now, with pennies, the only difference is that you'll need a ten times
> smaller pile before they're worth anything. A single penny is still
> essentially government-produced scrap metal by itself... except maybe to
> little children, who might be happy to find one on the ground and be
> able to go buy one gummibear.
I quite agree that eventually we will have to abandon the penny, I just
don't think we're quite there yet. It certainly wouldn't be a problem
if we did drop them, I just don't think it's necessary. And they're
still useful for charities, which often have boxes by sales registers
that people can drop change in. Pennies provide a surprisingly high
percentage of the money they take in. I can't remember the figure right
now, but I believe it was almost 20%.
A mil coin ($.001) would almost certainly be impossible to produce today
for less than $.001, but they did exist in earlier times, used primarily
for sales tax purposes, at a time when the dollar's purchasing power was
less than 10 times its present value, making those coins less valuable
than current pennies.
> Hm, here in Finland all displayed prices include the sales tax, so that
> problem doesn't exist.
I imagine there's a single nationwide sales tax, though? In the US,
many cities have their own sales tax, so it'd be a headache for
retailers to have to have different prices in different cities to
account for sales tax.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:25:09 -0600
From: "James W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
...delurk...
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:11:15 -0500, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> I think a con-currency (there's a good pun there somewhere involving
> multithreading, but I'm too sick to think of it)
Hope you get feeling better! Everyone in my household was sick at least
twice between Thanksgiving and New Years. :(
> Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
Only minimally. The níímindah people have a rudimentary, but efficient
system of 1,2,4,7.[1] That is, an object (think "coin") with a value of
1; an object worth 2, etc.
Names (in CXS as well as I know how):
1— E.kEc
2— NeJ
4— a.4uk 1st syllable is high tone
7— Ka:_jx long vowel is high tone
This is kind of new as of today (I haven't conlanged/-cultured in about
a year) so the words don't have "meanings" yet. I'm thinking of coming
up with a meaning for each that would represent something in their
culture. More to come later...maybe :)
[1] This kind of system is not original to me. I don't know if any exist
in the world now, but it appears in the Book of Mormon, and I thought
it would work well for my conculture.
...back to lurking again...
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:05:15 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Quoting Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> > Here, they set prices so that you get values like 299.50
> > SEK incl value added
> > tax. Prices are normally given inclusive of VAT;
> > exceptions include more
> > expensive household electronics.
>
> When I've been to Sweden in summer 2002 (Linköping area with
> obligatory trips to Malmö, Stockholm and Gothenburg), I saw
> prices like e.g. 23.59 SEK at petrol station's shops -- not
> the petrol price, but the price of things such as beer or
> ice cream or bread or whatever you can get in such shops.
I think they've largely stopped with ridiculous prices now - at least, checking
thru the various receipts in my wallet, I can't find any price that isn't a
multiple of 10 öre (=0.10 SEK).
> In
> fact, the only coins they have in Sweden are 1 Krona and 50
> Öre.
Actually, we do have 10 SEK and 5 SEK coins too. In order to mystify foreigners,
the 10 SEK ones have a smaller diameter than the 1 SEK ones (but are thicker).
> You don't even get back your 50 Öre often.
Hm. That does not agree with my experience.
Andreas
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:27:48 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
--- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [snip]
> ... There are competing goals: ... [snip] ..., while at the
> same time minimzing the number of coins needed to represent any
> given value.
> [snip]
> Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
Yes.
The minimum expected number of coins required to make change is
achieved when each coin is worth either three or four of the next
smaller coin, and worth one-third or one-quarter of the next larger
coin.
My conculture's currency has each coin either;
three of the next smaller and one-fourth of the next larger, or;
four of the next smaller and one-third of the next larger.
So every coin is worth twelve of those two sizes smaller, and one-
twelfth of a coin two sizes larger.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:39:51 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
--- In [email protected], "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
Thus far I've discovered two coins in the Senjecan culture. They
are named for the metal out of which they are made (if no basic
lexical entry exists).
lêma = shatter; -ûros = suffix to name a metal.
lemûros = zinc.
âjos = copper; âjos + lemûros = ájlemûros, brass.
An ájlemûros, used as a count noun, is a brass coin. It is about the
diameter of a nickel but with the thickness of a quarter.
ôôßa = shine; + -ûros = ooßûros, silver. ß = dz)
An ooßûros, used as a count noun, is a silver coin. It is about the
size of a quarter.
100 ajlémurôes = 1 ooßûros.
I will probably change the names once I decide what designs to put
on these coins.
This coins are not made any more. Now that the Senjecuni are
dispersed thoughout the world, they use the currency of the country
in which they live. Any remaining coins are secreted away so as not
to reveal the existence of the Senjecuni.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 02:02:06 +0200
From: John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
>Of course, it shouldn't take much math to prove that the most optimal
>system would have units of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc., provided of course
>that the general populace could be made sufficiently familiar with the
>concept.
>
>
>Paul
That's assuming you don't want to get change. If change is OK, powers of 3
are more efficient. Eg. if the buyer has one coin each of 1, 3, 9 and 27
monetary units, and the seller one each of 1, 3 and 9, any price up to 40
units can be paid.
John Vertical
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:16:31 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:11:15 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
I rather suspect Thagojians would use the currency of their host nation,
i.e. Mesopotamia, Egypt and Israel, at various points. I'm not sure
whether I want to introduce the notion of a 10th century Thagojian nation,
though it would be more on the scale of a micronation.
The Br'ga will have notions of trade, and *may* have picked up notions of
currency from Europeans. If I transplant them from the 17th-ish century to
the modern world, they'll probably have a dollar (or maybe "sikudo") made
up of 100 cents. I may have to make that step, in order to more
meaningfully write about them in a LLL-compatible way, which is one day
going to be the intent. I don't know enough 400-year-old Portuguese,
Spanish, *or* English to write the stuff I want to write, and I'm not sure
I could fake it.
Lizardmen have currency, though I haven't given it any thought. It'll be
real, concrete, currency: coins of silver and gold, and so forth. The idea
of paper money (to say nothing of a credit card!) would strike them as
downright underhanded, I suspect.
Paul
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:07:23 -0700
From: Jefferson Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:11:15 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> In US currency, for instance, there are essentially 4 sub-dollar
>> denominations (1, 5, 10, 25), since half dolalrs are very rare. As a
>> result, some values require up to 9 coins (e.g. 94¢ and 99¢).
>> Reintroduction of a commonly-circulated half-dollar would cut that
>> down by one coin; a two-cent piece would reduce it by two more. That
>> would yield six denominations and a maximum minimum (:)) of six coins
>> per value.
>
>
> I'm sure you're aware of the British system, which is partitioned 1, 2,
> 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. I have a gut feeling that it's more
> optimal than the US system of (essentially) 1, 5, 10, 25, 100, 500,
> 1000, 2000, which strikes me as more organic but less wieldy.
>
> Of course, it shouldn't take much math to prove that the most optimal
> system would have units of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc., provided of course
> that the general populace could be made sufficiently familiar with the
> concept.
Depends on whether you want the lowest number of _coins_ or the
lowest number of _types_. Binary is good for the former, but for
the latter you get the series: 1, 3, 6, 12, 24, etc. (Something
to keep in mind for those of us with duodecimal numbering systems
I think.) Hmmm, take this series up to 96, round each value to
the nearest number divisible by 5, and you have the American
coinage system.
--
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:27:04 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
--- In [email protected], Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>If you don't like pennies, or nickles, or whatever, just leave
>them at the register. I've never understood the hostility towards
>pennies, though. Like any other denomination of coin, if you use
>them, they're not a problem.
>From our local newspaper [January 1-7, 2006]: "Edmond Knowles of
Flomaton [Alabama] (pop. 1,588) set a world record when he cashed in
his 38-year penny collection last June [2005]. The pennies, stored in
four 55-gallon and three 20-gallon barrels, yielded $13,084.59, the
largest personal penny cash-in ever recorded."
That's 1,308,459 pennies!!
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:57:56 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:07:23 -0500, Jefferson Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Bennett wrote:
>> Of course, it shouldn't take much math to prove that the most optimal
>> system would have units of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc., provided of
>> course that the general populace could be made sufficiently familiar
>> with the concept.
>
> Depends on whether you want the lowest number of _coins_ or the lowest
> number of _types_. Binary is good for the former, but for the latter
> you get the series: 1, 3, 6, 12, 24, etc. (Something to keep in mind
> for those of us with duodecimal numbering systems I think.) Hmmm, take
> this series up to 96, round each value to the nearest number divisible
> by 5, and you have the American coinage system.
There's a 15c coin?
And, personally, I'd rather deal with a smaller number of coins per
transaction (in both directions), provided the types of coins could be
readily distinguished by fingertip touch while within my pocket or a cash
register drawer. I guess that's largely a matter of taste, though, isn't
it? It's the sort of thing that'd be hard to measure objectively, I
imagine.
I think spheres of radius "n" for a value of 2^n might be easily
discernable.
What about polyhedra? Naming them in the most convenient manner for me
(and in agreement with their number of faces, for the D&D impaired),
there's d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20 which are all easily distinguishable
by feel at reasonably small sizes, as well as maybe a large disk and a
small disk. You could cover all penny values up to over a dollar with that
arrangement. Given differently sized bills for penny powers of two higher
than that, and you'd be set up with IMO a pretty decent system. If I ever
develop a Sci-Fi conculture, I might have to go with that, but others
should feel free to steal it, if you wanna, since I don't really *do*
Sci-Fi, at least from an inventing point of view. I think I'd have to know
a *lot* more about language before I even start to go there.
Paul
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:19:05 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
--- In [email protected], Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I think spheres of radius "n" for a value of 2^n might be easily
>discernable.
Did you mean to write "spheres"? Wouldn't that be like having a
pocket full of marbles? What would be discernible would be a bulging
pocket which wouldn't look anything like a banana. :-)>
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:08:14 -0500
From: Dennis Paul Himes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
John Vertical <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course. Myself, I'm actually lexicalizing 2pi instead (which, from a
> mathematical viewpoint, is more logical.)
As did I. In Gladilatian, _ryt_ is two pi.
============================================================================
Dennis Paul Himes <> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.cshore.com/himes/dennis.htm
Gladilatian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/glad/lang.htm
Seezzitonian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/umuto/lang.htm
Disclaimer: "True, I talk of dreams; which are the children of an idle
brain, begot of nothing but vain fantasy; which is as thin of substance as
the air." - Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene iv Verse 96-99
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:15:39 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> Another thing that seems a mite peculiar: Most of the coins I've seen
> pictured from all over the world tend to be round, or at least round-ISH.
Historically, Japanese silver and small gold coins were rectangular,
while large gold coins were oblong. Copper coins were circles with
square holes.
For example,
http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Japan-1-Shu-Silver-1800s-Choice-High-Grade_W0QQitemZ8370265202QQcategoryZ3391QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:30:25 -0500
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals)
I don't post on here much, but as a coin collector I have to have at
least _one_ post on this thread.
Nomad of Norad David C. Hall wrote:
> Hi Nik (Nik Taylor), in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Jan 5 you wrote:
>
>
>>caeruleancentaur wrote:
>>
>>>With our luck they'll always round up!! The U.S. is no longer
>>>printing the $2 bill.
>>
>>Actually, we are. Not every year, but $2 are still printed whenever the
>>Federal Reserve's stock gets low. The most recent printing was in 2003
>>and 2004.
>>
>>Personally, I'd like to see coins of $1, $2, and $5. Maybe even $10.
>
>
> Well, there is a dollar coin. Actually, there have been two different
> ones in the last decade or two: the Susan B Anthony dollar coin, which
> flopped because it was physically the same size as a quarter (and thus
> couldn't be differintiated easily by feel when fumbling about for change
> in ones pocket), and then its recent replacement, the Sakajuia (sp?)
> dollar, which is exactly the same size as the Susan B Anthony!
>
> There used to be a dollar coin that was way bigger. Seems to me it was
> the Kennedy dollar. Seems to me there also used to be a half-dollar
> coin or some such thing...
>
>
As Roger Mills said, the last large-size silver dollar was the
Eisenhower dollar, and before that the Peace dollar, my personal
favorite. Before *that* was the Morgan dollar that everyone else likes.
Those are the "Old West" silver dollars. Today's dollar coins
(small-size) are the Anthony and Sacagawea dollars, and starting next
year, Presidential dollars.
The half dollar (once again, like Roger said) has Kennedy on it. It was
Ben Franklin until the assassination.
And of course, no current US coin has any silver in it, except bullion
coins and special "proof" coins that the Mint sells to collectors.
Personally, I would like to see $5, $10, and even $20 coins. A $10 coin
would probably be called an "eagle", matching the old term for gold
coins of that denomination. The $5 and $20 coins would be "half eagles"
and "double eagles" respectively. The largest US coin was a $50
commemorative, and it has been called a "half union", so there's the
word for $100 coins, too. :)
>>>There was one in the collection plate a few
>>>weeks ago that I took for a souvenir. Yes, I put two $1's in for
>>>it!! :-)>
>>
>>You can pick them up at any bank. I do that every so often, and then
>>spend them. Unfortunately, they're rarely given out in change, and
>>thus, probably end up right back at the bank the day after I spend them.
>
>
> There's a guy who regularly gets whole batches of $2 bills at the bank,
> just so he can hand them out as change to people and see their reaction.
> He actually got arrested because some clueless-clown cashier thought they
> were funny-money. ("There's no such THING as a two dollar bill! And look
> at this! They've all got similar serial numbers! GOTTA be a fake...!")
>
I actually have 14 $2 bills in my wallet right now, not to mention 5 $1
coins and 5 half-dollars in the car. I have yet to find a bank around
here that can get _rolls_ of halves, though. One guy on the coin
collecting newsgroup actually found a French *gold* coin in a roll,
hence my reason for searching. :)
[Pasting from other messages]
Nik Taylor wrote:
> John Vertical wrote:
>
>> I dunno about hostility, but I can understand the annoyance.
>> Imagine if you had one-thousandth coins instead; would you agree
>> that minting those would be a complete waste of material and
>> effort? You'd need dozens before you could spend them on anything.
>> Now, with pennies, the only difference is that you'll need a ten
>> times smaller pile before they're worth anything. A single penny is
>> still essentially government-produced scrap metal by itself...
>> except maybe to little children, who might be happy to find one on
>> the ground and be able to go buy one gummibear.
>
>
> I quite agree that eventually we will have to abandon the penny, I
> just don't think we're quite there yet. It certainly wouldn't be a
> problem if we did drop them, I just don't think it's necessary. And
> they're still useful for charities, which often have boxes by sales
> registers that people can drop change in. Pennies provide a
> surprisingly high percentage of the money they take in. I can't
> remember the figure right now, but I believe it was almost 20%.
>
> A mil coin ($.001) would almost certainly be impossible to produce
> today for less than $.001, but they did exist in earlier times, used
> primarily for sales tax purposes, at a time when the dollar's
> purchasing power was less than 10 times its present value, making
> those coins less valuable than current pennies.
>
The problem with pennies (or cents, as pedantic numismatists say) is
that they cost *more* to produce than they are worth. Seriously. One
penny costs on average something like 1.25 cents to actually mint. And
the annual mintage is somewhere in the billions. Copper pennies (minted
through 1982, when the Mint switched to zinc) are actually worth less as
coins than as metal.
As for sub-cent coins, the US minted a half-cent until right before the
Civil War (1857, I think), and the British had farthings well into the
20th century. American banknotes go all the way down to 3 cents, the
so-called "fractional currency" issued during the Civil War because of a
shortage of metal for coinage. Think how little one of *those* would buy
now, and you have the reason why some people want to get rid of the $1 bill.
Now on to more pressing matters, namely the ObConlang portion of this
post...
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Have y'all designed currency systems for your cultures?
>
Suvile (actually, the Suzhoni, since currency is not specific to the
Suvile language) has a currency system based on the number 60.
There are three base units of currency:
* the gold |bagil| (translated as "dollar")
* the silver |sajon| (translated as "dime")
* the copper or base-metal |melev| (translated as "cent")
Each of these has its own set of denominations:
Gold: 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2 bagil
Silver: 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 5 sajon
Copper: 1/2, 1, 2, 5 melev
Since the weight of the "1" coins is approximately 1/10 troy oz., these
are worth, at prices of $540/oz gold, $9/oz silver, and $0.15/oz copper:
bagil: 2b=$108, 1b=$54, 1/2b=$27, 1/4b=$13.50
sajon: 5s=$4.50, 2s=$1.80, 1s=$0.90, 1/2s=$0.45, 1/4s=$0.225
melev: 5m=7.5 cents 2m=3 ct., 1m=1.5 ct., 1/2m=0.75 ct.
Yes I have thought about this too much, and, yes, I do want to make real
Suzhoni coins, or at least the copper ones. The reverse (tails side)
would have the 12-pointed star that can be seen in the IdzonWiki logo,
and the obverse (heads), I'm not sure yet.
--
Michael Potter
Idzon Conworld (now Wikified!): http://idzon.potterpcs.net
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:39:13 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>If you don't like pennies, or nickles, or whatever, just leave
>>them at the register. I've never understood the hostility towards
>>pennies, though. Like any other denomination of coin, if you use
>>them, they're not a problem.
>
>
>>From our local newspaper [January 1-7, 2006]: "Edmond Knowles of
> Flomaton [Alabama] (pop. 1,588) set a world record when he cashed in
> his 38-year penny collection last June [2005]. The pennies, stored in
> four 55-gallon and three 20-gallon barrels, yielded $13,084.59, the
> largest personal penny cash-in ever recorded."
>
> That's 1,308,459 pennies!!
:-) And another good reason for keeping pennies - easy way to save up
large sums of money!
Anyways, I never have more than 4 pennies in my wallet at any given
time, because I use them. Like, if something were priced, say, $7.51,
and I had a $10 bill and, say, a couple dimes and a penny, I'll pay
$10.01, to minimize my change. (Admittedly, I'm semi-OCD on that issue
... I've been known to give a cashier $23.01 for a $7.51 purchase -
$15.50 in change, the most compact change I could come up with with what
I had on me)
Carsten Becker wrote:
> As for getting rid of one and two pence pieces, I wouldn't
> mind doing that here in the Euro zone as well. It's so
> annoying that when buying something at a drug store, you
> will ALWAYS get one cent change because *all* of their
> prices are X.99 EUR. And then you've got half a dozen
> pennies in your wallet and cannot get rid of them because
> hardly anybody accepts them.
Even in increments of one or two? That surprises me! If they give them
out, why wouldn't they accept them? Seems counterproductive to me.
You'd run out of pennies in your till pretty damn fast.
One really has to wonder what the EU was thinking setting the Euro at a
value that made .01 so nearly worthless. They should've set it at about
5 times that value, so that a 1-cent piece would've been more worthwhile.
> The same goes for 2 cent
> pieces. I also wouldn't mind to introduce a 5 Euro coin
> because you very often get back a 5 Euro bill and the rest
> in cash[1]
Interestingly, around here, "cash" is often used to mean paper money
exclusively.
Japan's highest coin is the 500-yen, which is roughly 5 Euro.
A hundred years ago, the US's smallest bill was $1, and today it's still
$1, even though the dollar's value was about 20 times higher then. So,
even the half-dollar back then was worth about $10 today!
> [1] Open wallet, take change, put in bill, turn wallet, open
> pocket for coins, put in coins, close pocket, close wallet.
A lot of Americans just put their coins in their pocket. I prefer
keeping it in my wallet, as its more efficient, but lately I've been
looking for a new, nicer, wallet, and you just can't find men's wallets
with a coin-pocket. Very annoying.
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:47:56 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency (was: [Theory] Types of numerals)
Peter Bleackley wrote:
> For The Empire of Imegan (Mágikimnaz speakers)
> 1 Mágikimillund (Emperor-gold) = 30 Imeganrennadá (Imegan-silver)
> 1 Imeganrennad = 18 Gudmenandá (Loaf-bronze)
> Before the fall of the Empire, 1 Gudmenand would buy a loaf of bread of
> a standard weight. However, the currency was considerably devalued
> during the War of Breaking, when the Empire collapsed.
How was the Gudmenand divided, if at all?
> The currency of the port of Lezera, (translated names only)
> 1 Galley = 12 Barges
> 1 Barge = 16 Skiffs
>
> The currency of the Wavolar
> 1 Horse = 6 Foals
> 1 Foal = 5 Spears
> 1 Spear = 4 Horseshoes
> The Wavolar mainly trade by barter, however, and issue currency mainly
> as an expression of their independence.
>
> The currency of the Jade Empire
> 1 Jade Crown = 25 Kingfishers
> 1 Kingfisher = 15 Spears
> 1 Spear = 8 Atlatls
>
> A Jade crown is a jade disc an inch and a half across and 1/4 inch
> thick. At original values, it is worth at least 10 Magikimillundá.
Interesting names.
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:47:48 -0600
From: Nik Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Michael Potter wrote:
> As Roger Mills said, the last large-size silver dollar was the
> Eisenhower dollar
The Eisenhower dollar wasn't silver, just the size of a silver dollar.
> and starting next
> year, Presidential dollars.
Yep. I'm looking forward to those. :-)
> Personally, I would like to see $5, $10, and even $20 coins.
I'd like those too. :-) Hence, my Kassi having a 3-khof (~$25) coin.
> The problem with pennies (or cents, as pedantic numismatists say) is
> that they cost *more* to produce than they are worth. Seriously. One
> penny costs on average something like 1.25 cents to actually mint.
The figures I've seen is that a penny still costs less than 1 cent to
make. The US mint says it costs .81 cents to produce a penny
http://www.usmint.gov/faqs/circulating_coins/index.cfm?action=faq_circulating_coin#cost
> As for sub-cent coins, the US minted a half-cent until right before the
> Civil War (1857, I think)
Local governments produced mil tokens, however, well into the 60's.
I find it odd that the half-cent was discontinued in 1857, when the
dollar was wroth about twice as much as in 1800.
I'd listed teh Kassi's earlier, but made a couple of small errors.
Corrected:
There's also ¼ and ½ zalh coins, originally intended to ease the
transition to duodecimal (as were ¼ and ½ khof coins, but those were
never popular), as 1 duodecimalized zalh would be equal to ¾ old zalh,
making those coins 1/3 and 2/3 of the planned duodecimal currency.
For a while, there were coins of 2¼, 4½, 9, 27, and 54 zalh (in
duodecimal notation, .03, .06, .10, .30, .60 kh), but those were
generally despised, and quickly abandoned (except for the 54-zalh - ½
khof - which remains to this day, though uncommon)
Corrected modern currency:
Coins
¼z
½z
1z
3z
6z
12z
36z
½kh (54z; uncommon)
1kh
3kh
6kh (uncommon)
12kh (rare)
Banknotes
3kh (uncommon)
6kh
12hk
36kh
72kh
144kh
432kh
The Fifth Empire survived for about 2 centuries, beginning at a
technology level roughly analogous to mid-20th century, and progressing
at a little slower than we did. They managed their currency at zero
(average) inflation, until their collapse.
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:55:08 +1100
From: Tristan McLeay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
Nik Taylor wrote:
>
> Anyways, I never have more than 4 pennies in my wallet at any given
> time, because I use them. Like, if something were priced, say, $7.51,
> and I had a $10 bill and, say, a couple dimes and a penny, I'll pay
> $10.01, to minimize my change. (Admittedly, I'm semi-OCD on that issue
> ... I've been known to give a cashier $23.01 for a $7.51 purchase -
> $15.50 in change, the most compact change I could come up with with what
> I had on me)
I don't really think I'd call that remotely OCD. ("Just a minute, let me
see if I've got any change.") That's really a very common
practice---about the only people who don't do it are the people who want
to try and take certain coins out of circulation (I've met a few people
who try and collect all the 5c coins they can---they obviously hate them
as much as I do).
> One really has to wonder what the EU was thinking setting the Euro at a
> value that made .01 so nearly worthless. They should've set it at about
> 5 times that value, so that a 1-cent piece would've been more worthwhile.
I only assume they were just trying to make the euro comparable in value
to the various dollars and the British pound. What I think they
should've done is just said that the primary subdivision of the euro was
0.1, a dime or something. There's no reason a subdivision needs to be a
hundredth.
(Nik quoting Carsten.)
> > The same goes for 2 cent
> > pieces. I also wouldn't mind to introduce a 5 Euro coin
> > because you very often get back a 5 Euro bill and the rest
> > in cash[1]
>
> Interestingly, around here, "cash" is often used to mean paper money
> exclusively.
"Cash" I usually take to mean coins or notes, I don't think I've ever
heard either specialisation before. Notes are notes, rarely paper money
because hereabouts they're polymer (another thing I don't get is why
euros notes are paper. It makes it look like Monopoly money!). I
actually had to read that line a few times, because the normal thing to
hear for that meaning is "... and the rest in change".
> A lot of Americans just put their coins in their pocket. I prefer
> keeping it in my wallet, as its more efficient, but lately I've been
> looking for a new, nicer, wallet, and you just can't find men's wallets
> with a coin-pocket. Very annoying.
Australian men are the same---most women do put their coins in their
purses though. Or handbags. I find mens wallets with coin-pockets might
as well not have the coin pocket, because once you've got more than a
few coins, you can't close it! Perhaps it's less noticeable in the US
because all your common coins are of relatively low value, whereas we
have $1 and $2 coins which are actually of some use.
--
Tristan.
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:16:11 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Theory] Types of numerals
As far as carrying coins around: through college, I used to just drop
them in my front pocket - but through college, my trousers were almost
exclusively bluejeans. Once I graduated and got a "real" job, I was
wearing slacks every day - and quickly found out that loose coins in
the pocket were far too jingly. So these days I carry around a little
keychain-style change purse (e.g.
http://www.amcwholesaleinc.com/image/detail_274.jpg). It holds a
reasonable number of coins as long as I stick to quarters and below;
but given the number of $1 bills I usually have in my billfold, I'd
need an entire second coin holder just for dollar coins if we made the
switch.
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:20:05 -0500
From: Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Nik Taylor wrote:
> Michael Potter wrote:
>
>> As Roger Mills said, the last large-size silver dollar was the
>> Eisenhower dollar
>
>
> The Eisenhower dollar wasn't silver, just the size of a silver dollar.
The San Francisco dollars were 40% silver until 1976 (the bicentennial
reverse). Older, "real" silver dollars were 90% silver. So they
*weren't* silver dollars, but some of them _had silver in them_. Of
course, as of 1977, there were no dollars minted that could even
remotely be called silver, except in Proof sets...
>
>> and starting next
>> year, Presidential dollars.
>
>
> Yep. I'm looking forward to those. :-)
The thing is, though, they're *still* going to make the Sacagawea
dollars! That makes even less sense when you realize that the mint
hasn't released _those_ for circulation since 2001.
>
>> Personally, I would like to see $5, $10, and even $20 coins.
>
>
> I'd like those too. :-) Hence, my Kassi having a 3-khof (~$25) coin.
>
>> The problem with pennies (or cents, as pedantic numismatists say) is
>> that they cost *more* to produce than they are worth. Seriously. One
>> penny costs on average something like 1.25 cents to actually mint.
>
>
> The figures I've seen is that a penny still costs less than 1 cent to
> make. The US mint says it costs .81 cents to produce a penny
> http://www.usmint.gov/faqs/circulating_coins/index.cfm?action=faq_circulating_coin#cost
>
According to that page, the .81 cent figure is from the 2000 Annual
Report. The price of zinc has doubled in that time, but the mint's
production costs have (so they say) gone down. The 2004 report (the
latest I could find) has .93 cents per coin, and even *that* was during
a lull in metal prices. So it seems like it could go either way. I don't
remember where I got the 1.2 cent figure from. Maybe that was for
copper? I'm not sure.
BTW, for those listening in, the US penny (since 1982) is 97.5% zinc,
the copper is only a thin plating.
>
>> As for sub-cent coins, the US minted a half-cent until right before
>> the Civil War (1857, I think)
>
>
> Local governments produced mil tokens, however, well into the 60's.
>
I had forgotten about those, and I didn't know they were made that long.
[snip Kassi currency]
> The Fifth Empire survived for about 2 centuries, beginning at a
> technology level roughly analogous to mid-20th century, and
> progressing at a little slower than we did. They managed their
> currency at zero (average) inflation, until their collapse.
See, I haven't thought about historical aspects of Suzhoni currency, and
now you've made me go and think about it!
Seriously, I'm glad there's somebody else on here that seems to be
interested in this. I think we left everybody else behind after about
the first sentence.
ObConlang:
The Suzhoni don't have banknotes. Or at least none issued by the central
government. Each of the 19 states is allowed to issue its own notes, but
the people, much like Americans of days gone by, prefer "real" money:
metal coinage.
--
Michael Potter
Idzon Conworld: http://idzon.potterpcs.net
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 03:28:42 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
On 1/6/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > And then, of course, we've got the "euro." Sometimes it's called the
> > "euro-dollar," even though it's not the same value as a US dollar.
>
> Euros and Eurodollars are *not* the same thing!
Nevertheless, since the introduction of the Euro I have often heard it
referred to as the Euro-dollar; I've certainly heard that term far
more often than "Eurodollar" in the sense you describe. Complain to
the news media. :)
Hm. Apparently the EUR is alt-shift-2 on my Mac. If there's a
mnemonic there, it's lost on me.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 09:49:31 +0000
From: R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 1/6/06, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Nomad of Norad -- David C Hall wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>And then, of course, we've got the "euro." Sometimes it's called the
>>>"euro-dollar," even though it's not the same value as a US dollar.
>>
>>Euros and Eurodollars are *not* the same thing!
>
>
> Nevertheless, since the introduction of the Euro I have often heard it
> referred to as the Euro-dollar; I've certainly heard that term far
> more often than "Eurodollar" in the sense you describe. Complain to
> the news media. :)
Um - sounds like a Merkan thing. I've never heard the euro called that
this side of the Pond. Presumably it's a back formation from eurocent.
More confusion, it seems. We must not confuse Euro (abbreviation for
Eurodollar) with euro (the common currency of much, tho not all, of the
European union) which, it seems, gets called a 'euro-dollar' in LeftPondia.
If Mark is right in blaming the media - and I have no reason to suppose
he is not right - why do they have to make a potentially confusing
situation even more confusing?
> Hm. Apparently the EUR is alt-shift-2 on my Mac. If there's a
> mnemonic there, it's lost on me.
Interesting. On my Mac alt-shift-2 gives TM (the trade-mark symbol); to
get EUR it's just alt-2 :)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
MAKE POVERTY HISTORY
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:07:19 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: coins and currency
--- In [email protected], Michael Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Seriously, I'm glad there's somebody else on here that seems to be
>interested in this. I think we left everybody else behind after
>about the first sentence.
Not so. This is how I learn & where I get ideas for my conlang &
conculture. Most OT's fascinate me. The only topics I ignore
regularly are those concerning computer programming. That is a
subject way beyond me right now & probably always will be. And I do
ignore flames if they get too hot.
>From R.A. Brown:
>If Mark is right in blaming the media - and I have no reason to
>suppose he is not right - why do they have to make a potentially
>confusing situation even more confusing?
If they are like the majority of American journalists in my
experience, it's because they haven't got a clue as to how to work
with the English language. A good example is our cable weather
channel. What can one say hours on end about the weather? This is
the only time I say, "Thank God for the commercials!" It's a good
source of gobbledy-gook & poorly constructed sentences.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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