There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
From: Sai Emrys
2. Re: Toki Pona Script
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
3. Re: Relative clauses
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
4. Relative clauses - 2nd attempt
From: caeruleancentaur
5. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
From: Eldin Raigmore
6. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
From: Larry Sulky
Messages
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1. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 2, 2006 6:16 pm (PDT)
> Including names of the major contributors can be done, if someone would be
> so kind as to point me to the relevant threads in the archives. (That
> draft summarizes everything I've been able to find out.)
Check the threads where I was asking about it around last
December/January. I remember asking the same question, and having
someone answer it - plus point to a site that had previous versions.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (7)
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2. Re: Toki Pona Script
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed Aug 2, 2006 8:40 pm (PDT)
[Repeating a reply made directly to Sai. It seems the Reply-to
on my previous message was wrong, so Sai had replied to me, as
had Henrik.]
On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Sai Emrys wrote:
>
> > However, for handwritten use, many of the symbols are too
> complex to write quickly and too rectilinear to readily
> approximate cursively. Ideally, I think, a practical script for
> any language will enable quick and fluid reading and writing.
> And it doesn't hurt if it looks beautiful, too, but that's a bit
> harder to achieve.
>
> Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?
>
> I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on
> computer-use script, or vice versa.
Hi Sai,
How's everything? Hope you're meeting some success in your hunt for a job
or academic position that suits your strengths and interests.
Let me start with your second point first:
> I at least see no need to impose handwriting limitations on computer-use
script, or vice versa.
Nor I, especially where such a script is intended only for use on computer.
Regarding your first point:
> Perhaps have a separate variant of the script for handwriting?
Why not? However, for a script that one intends also for handwriting, it
would still make sense to have the computer, print and handwritten
letterforms substantially similar, to minimise any potential confusion
through "cognitive dissonance". Another, similar consideration for
handwritten forms is that they ought to be readily adaptable to different
writing instruments, eg fineline ballpoint, fineline or chiselpoint felttip,
calligrapher's (eg copperplate) nib, quill, brush, etc, without loss of
significant detail. And as far as possible, such handwritten scripts should
be both beautiful and ergonomic. However, none of these considerations
would prevent anyone from creating a script suitable only to one or a few
means of production.
Have you ever done any calligraphy, or written with a brush, eg sumie?
Personally, I find producing an admirable quality of calligraphic work in
Latin and Gothic scripts to be more tedious and time-consuming than the
output warrants, so I haven't done any of that for years. However, writing
with a brush is capable of creating works that are at once organic and
intelligent, and of the highest artistic perfection. I would return to
doing sumie, which I studied years ago, if I could spend enough time on it
to satisfy my own standards.
Regards and best wishes,
Yahya
------------------------------------------------
Yahya Abdal-Aziz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Melbourne PC User Group
Convener, Graphics Interest Group
Convener, Music Interest Group
------------------------------------------------
Messages in this topic (14)
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3. Re: Relative clauses
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 12:21 am (PDT)
Hi Charlie,
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 caeruleancentaur wrote:
>
> The verb in Senjecas is marked only for mood:
> -a = indicative,
> -o = subjuncive,
> -e = imperative.
>
> I want to indicate a relative clause by a marked verb; there are no
> relative pronouns or adverbs in Senjecas. I want to indicate this
> with a -u ending on the verb. Can I call this the relative mood?
>
> Since there is no definite or indefinite article in Senjecas, I
> thought a generic form of the verb would be helpful.
>
> nibêes óósvi µêrsa = "cheetahs run swiftly" or "the cheetahs run
> swiftly."
>
> I want to use the preposed particle _im_ to do this. Thus:
> nibêes óósvi im µêrsa could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."
>
> My question is whether this is a generic mood or generic aspect or
> what.
I think perhaps we need a little more information before we can answer that.
A fuller gloss would be helpful. From what you wrote, the verb in your
sentences must be "µêrsa", in the indicative, since no other word ends
in -a, -o or -e. Which leaves me still to guess whether "cheetahs" is
"nibêes" or "óósvi", and "swiftly" is "óósvi" or "nibêes". Nor can I tell
whether the noun for "cheetahs" incorporates a plural marker.
In effect, you want to inflect the verb with a prefix im- that indicates
generality? Is that an abstract, philosophical generality, expressible as
"all cheetahs", or just indefiniteness, expressible as "some cheetahs"? Do
you mark definiteness at all?
May I suggest that your translations are a little imprecise? You see, you
have two sentences (one with "im"), both of which you translate as "cheetahs
run swiftly". In English, that sentence is ambiguous unless we qualify
"cheetahs". Does "nibêes óósvi im µêrsa" mean "all cheetahs run swiftly",
or instead "some cheetahs run swiftly"?
One more question in this barrage. ;-) How is this construction a relative
clause? Presumably, you're after something like "cheetahs, which run
swiftly, ...".
Regards,
Yahya
Messages in this topic (19)
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4. Relative clauses - 2nd attempt
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 5:20 am (PDT)
I apologize for the previous imprecision.
There are two questions in this message & I seem to have gottent
them mixed up!
Question #1---
The verb in Senjecas is marked only for mood:
-a = indicative,
-o = subjuncive,
-e = imperative.
I want to indicate a relative clause by a marked verb; there are no
relative pronouns or adverbs in Senjecas. I want to indicate this
with a -u ending on the verb. The language is SOV so the relative
clause would precede its noun.
The man who is standing is my father.
n-us-ë sâât-u µîr-us m-úsïo âp-as ês-a.
3person-Class6.NOM.sg-EP(ENTHETIC)
stand-REL(ATIVE)
man-Class6.NOM.sg
1person-STATIVE.sg
father-NOM.sg
be-IND
Question #1: Can I call this the relative mood?
Question #2---
Without a definite article a sentence in the indicative mood could
be either general or specific. E.g.:
nib-êes óós-vi µêrs-a
cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
swift-ADV
run-IND
That could mean either "The cheetahs run swiftly" (some specific
cheetahs I am watching) or "Cheetahs run swiftly" (all cheetahs).
I want to use the preposed particle (not prefix) _im_ to mark the
generic meaning. Thus:
nib-êes óós-v-' im µêrs-a could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."
cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
swift-ADV-EL(ISION)
GPTC (GENERIC PARTICLE)
run-IND
Question #2: Is this structure known as generic mood or generic
aspect or generic something else?
I hope this clarifies my previous muddled attempt.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Re: FW: Translation Challenge: Foucault's Pendulum
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 9:46 am (PDT)
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 22:52:39 -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 7/29/06, Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> > ennÄpren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity was a
>> > stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of mathematical
>> > rational and mentally rational. So, irrational numbers are actually
>> > insane numbers.
>>
>> I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would have
>> different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word for
>> "rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of logic." The
>> opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe pi. Pi is
reasonable
>> on its own terms, just one's we can't fathom. Irrational numbers:
>> unfathomable numbers? bottomless numbers?
>>
>
>Yes. I haven't made a word yet for 'ratio' but 'rational [number]' is
>probably related to that instead.
>
>> > tamÅl 'root' from root for 'birth'
>>
>> Interesting! Tamol means "child" in Teonaht.
>>
>The root mÅl yields bases:
>emÅl 'infant'
>emÅlanen '(birth)-mother'
>mÅl 'womb'
>mÅlÅn 'pregnant woman'
>ramÅl 'embryo'
>and now tamÅl
>
>The baseword for 'child' is Ä«s, which is related to an old
>unproductive diminutive -isse, which is part of the word for 'pi'.
>
>--
>Sylvia Sotomayor
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.terjemar.net
>=========================================================================
To: "Sally Caves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: OFFLIST: rational (WAS: Translation Challenge: Foucault's
Pendulum)
Hi.
---In [email protected], Sally Caves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sylvia Sotomayor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>ennÄpren '(mathematical) rationality'. Getting this from sanity
>>was a stretch, but needed for the congruence in English of
>>mathematical rational and mentally rational. So, irrational
>>numbers are actually insane numbers.
>
>I had trouble with this, too; I basically think that Teonaht would
>have different terminology for mathematical concepts: I have a word
>for "rational" (racodel), but it means "full of reason, full of
>logic." The opposite, "full of unreason" doesn't really describe
>pi. Pi is reasonable on its own terms, just one's we can't
>fathom. Irrational numbers: unfathomable numbers? bottomless
>numbers?
[snip]
I had assumed that you and Sylvia and everyone on list already knew
this; and maybe you do, but you're talking as if ignoring it, so:
The term to translate would be "incommensurable" rather
than "irrational".
In English the terms "rational" and "irrational", when applied to
_types_ of _numbers_, come from the word "ratio", not from some
synonym for "reason".
Older English translations used the term "commensurable number" to
mean a number which is the ratio of two whole numbers, and the
term "incommensurable number" to mean a number which is not such a
ratio.
---
Messages in this topic (6)
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6. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 1:10 pm (PDT)
On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know Lojban has something
> > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
> > term is in lojban) "la".
>
> I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
>
> I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article, BICBW.
>
Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry
Messages in this topic (15)
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