There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
From: Dana Nutter
1b. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2a. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Eldin Raigmore
2b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Chris Bates
2c. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
3b. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
From: Sai Emrys
4. Genericity (was: Relative clauses - 2nd attempt)
From: Eldin Raigmore
5. Re: German conlangcon in August?
From: Carsten Becker
6. A method of generating "flavored" words
From: Gary Shannon
Messages
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1a. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
Posted by: "Dana Nutter" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 3:13 pm (PDT)
li [Larry Sulky] mi tulis la
> On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I know Lojban has something
> > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
> > > term is in lojban) "la".
> >
> > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
> >
> > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar
> name-article, BICBW.
Yes. All proper nouns are introduced with "li" (adj.) or "lu" (prep.).
What is considered a "name" in Sasxsek is more than what most languages
have.
> Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
> kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry
------------------------------
dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter
LI SASXSEK LATIS.
http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
Messages in this topic (17)
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1b. Re: Name clitics (was Re: USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 1:22 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:57:41 -0400, Larry Sulky wrote:
> On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > I know Lojban has something
> > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
> > > term is in lojban) "la".
> >
> > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
> >
> > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article,
> > BICBW.
> >
>
> Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
> kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry
In my experimental speedtalk-type language X-3, all proper names begin and
end with a glottal stop, which doesn't occur elsewhere in the language.
So if you see a glottal stop, everything that follows is a proper name until
you hit upon another glottal stop, beyond which everything are ordinary
morphemes again. Proper names are the only class of morphemes in X-3 that are
more than one phoneme long.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (17)
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2a. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 5:43 pm (PDT)
We all remember uses of morphological "number" to encode Familiarity and/or
Authority and/or Servility; and most of us have heard of using
morphological "person" for this purpose.
Has anyone heard of a natlang or a conlang that uses the same morphology
for "case" and also for Familiarity/Authority/Servility?
For instance;
Dative = Familiar
Ergative = Authoritative
Nominative/Absolutive = Servile?
------
eldin
Messages in this topic (43)
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2b. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Chris Bates" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 1:22 am (PDT)
>For instance;
>Dative = Familiar
>Ergative = Authoritative
>Nominative/Absolutive = Servile?
>
>
IIRC, a long time ago someone claimed to me that Korean case marking was
influenced in some way by status. I don't speak the language though, so
I can't tell you if it's true or not. Even if it is, I wouldn't expect
something like that because it completely screws up beyond repair the
purpose of case marking, which is to disambiguate arguments. :) Perhaps
some languages may erase case distinctions for low respect arguments,
much like inanimate (low power) arguments in Latin and many other
languages do not distinguish nominative and accusative?
Messages in this topic (43)
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2c. Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)
Hallo!
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:29:46 -0400, Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> Has anyone heard of a natlang or a conlang that uses the same morphology
> for "case" and also for Familiarity/Authority/Servility?
Something like that is found in Mark Rosenfelder's Axunashin, where an IE-ish
nominative/accusative system has developed into a dominant/subordinate system:
http://www.zompist.com/axunashin.htm#Cases:
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (43)
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3a. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 7:50 am (PDT)
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Sai Emrys wrote:
>> Including names of the major contributors can be done, if someone would be
>> so kind as to point me to the relevant threads in the archives. (That
>> draft summarizes everything I've been able to find out.)
>
> Check the threads where I was asking about it around last
> December/January. I remember asking the same question, and having
> someone answer it - plus point to a site that had previous versions.
Ah, thanks. Here is the new version.
The conlang flag represents both the Conlang mailing list, and language
inventors and constructed language aficionados worldwide. It was flown at the
1st Language Construction Conference in Berkeley, California in 2006.
The general idea of the conlang flag was decided as a result of a poll of the
subscribers of the Conlang mailing list in 2004. The first proposal that
included the Tower of Babel was submitted by Jan van Steenbergen, and the first
proposal that included a rising sun was submitted by David Peterson. Multiple
list members submitted designs that combined the two elements, the first of
which was by Leland Paul.
The final version of the flag was drawn by Christian Thalmann, who has released
it to the public domain.
Symbolism
The flag depicts a silhouette of a ziggurat in front of a rising sun. The
ziggurat is a reference to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel,
representing language and linguistic diversity. The terraced structure of the
ziggurat is also an iconic representation of the way a typical artistic
language is created piece by piece, and is never quite completed.
The rising sun represents the rise in notoriety and recognition of language
construction as an art form.
An earlier proposal for the design had a red sky. This was later changed to
purple, to avoid the association with anarchism that the red-black combination
would have. In addition, purple is seen to symbolise creativity.
Suggested Pantone colours
The following Pantone values were used for the flags flown at the 1st LCC:
black: Pantone Black
yellow: PMS 123
purple: PMS 527
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
On the Semantic Web, it's too hard to prove you're not a dog. --Bill de hÓra
Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Conlang flag description for fotw.net: please help proofread
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 9:50 am (PDT)
Looks great.
Now all that's missing is the series of flags leading up to the final. :)
Gravy of course, but I found it to be pretty neat when I was doing
that research in December.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (9)
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4. Genericity (was: Relative clauses - 2nd attempt)
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 2:16 pm (PDT)
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:02:40 -0000, caeruleancentaur
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I apologize for the previous imprecision.
>There are two questions in this message & I seem to have gottent
>them mixed up!
[snip]
>Question #2---
>
>Without a definite article a sentence in the indicative mood could
>be either general or specific. E.g.:
>
>nib-êes óós-vi µêrs-a
>
>cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
>swift-ADV
>run-IND
>
>That could mean either "The cheetahs run swiftly" (some specific
>cheetahs I am watching) or "Cheetahs run swiftly" (all cheetahs).
>
>I want to use the preposed particle (not prefix) _im_ to mark the
>generic meaning. Thus:
>
>nib-êes óós-v-' im µêrs-a could only mean "cheetahs run swiftly."
>
>cheetah-Class3.NOM.pl
>swift-ADV-EL(ISION)
>GPTC (GENERIC PARTICLE)
>run-IND
>
>Question #2: Is this structure known as generic mood or generic
>aspect or generic something else?
[snip]
Well, genericity is one of the two things that definiteness is a
grammaticalization of.
To put it a little more idiomatically;
Definiteness is a grammaticalization of identifiability and universality-or-
genericity.
To say "The X" can mean either (and often both) of two things;
1) I expect you already know which "X" I'm talking about (identifiability),
2) I'm talking about _all_ the "X"s I _could_ be talking about.
---
When you say something like "birds sing" or "dogs chase cats" or "cheetahs
run swiftly" or "elephants never forget", what you're saying is essentially
gnomic (or, at least, maybe it is -- see the discussion here about "gnomic"
the past few weeks).
I don't think it qualifies as an "aspect", really, because it isn't about
the internal temporal consistency of the clause.
We had talked about "gnomic" as if it might be an aktionsart. But some
languages mark what a cross-linguistic scholar might recognise semantically
as an aktionsart, as if it were morphologically an aspect.
I also don't think it is a modality or mode or mood, because it doesn't
have to do with the speaker's attitude toward the clause (as a dubitative
mood might) nor with how the speaker intends the clause to fit into the
discourse (as your "relative" mode -- which I snipped, excuse me -- might).
In my opinion it is best classified as a grammatical number. You are
suggesting -- as I see it -- that the verb inflect for number, and that one
of the values this inflection can have is "generic number"; that is, that
the agreed-with-participant (probably the subject) is intended to refer to
_all_ the things it _could_ refer to.
---
Anyone else?
-----
eldin
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Re: German conlangcon in August?
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 4:02 pm (PDT)
Hi,
I'm in Korbach from 25th to 27th August next time, but that's unfortunately
far from Leipzig.
Carsten
(At work they have blocked GMail, GMX, Web.de and all those BTW -- I've been
thinking about going nomail although I didn't want to.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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6. A method of generating "flavored" words
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 7:18 pm (PDT)
Here's an interesting procedure I stumbled upon while playing with word
generation. Take words from a lnaguage whose flavor you wish to capture. This
can be your own conlang to generate "matching" words, or any natlang you would
like to copy the flavor of. Or it could even be a combination of two or more
different natlangs to get a blended flavor.
Collect a few dozen or more words. Divide those words into VCV groups where the
V's represent ALL the adjacent vowels in a word and the C represents ALL the
adjacent consonants. For example, the English word "miniature" would become
"-mi", "inia", "iatu", and "ure". "school" would become "-schoo" and "ool".
These groups will be assembled together with other groups from other words with
the rule being that the complete set of adjacent ending vowels must match the
complete set of starting vowels for the attached group.
Thus "inia" (from "miniature") could be followed by "iate" (from "alleviate"),
but it could NOT be followed by "ave" (from "have") because "a" does not
completely match "ia".
Here are a few random samples to show how the generated words usually retain
the general flavor of the language from which the groups were drawn:
== English ==
-mi miniature
ino dinosaurs
octo doctoral
ore more
-> minoctore
-vo volunteers
ofe professional
eti meticulously
ishe established
ent- student
-> vofetishent
-si sites
inia miniature
ude student
-> siniatude
-pro professional
olo paleontologists
on- season
-> prolon
-sta started
aleo paleontologists
eove moreover
entra concentration
aci racing
ity rigidity
-> staleoventracity
== Italian ==
-inco incontro
orto ritorto
ore dictore
-> incortore
-cru cruciale
utto farabutto
ola regolare
-> cruttola
-so sotto
oro caloroso
oso difettoso
-> soroso
-nu nullo
umi incolumita
ile amabile
ento momento
-> numilento
== Swahili ==
-da dadisi
amba mamba
asi masizi
-> dambasi
-hu hutubu
uli tambulika
inga ingawa
anda jamanda
-> hulinganda
-mga mganda
abi thabiti
izu kizuka
ungu mungu
-> mgabizungu
== Dutch ==
-kni knippen
ichte berichten
ergaa ondegaan
aap slaap
-> knichtergaap
Try it. You'll like it.
--gary
Messages in this topic (1)
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