There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Senjecas on Wikifrath
From: Herman Miller
2a. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Dennis Paul Himes
2b. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
3a. Kash "supplement" uploaded
From: Roger Mills
3b. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
From: Mark J. Reed
3c. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
From: Roger Mills
3d. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
From: Mark J. Reed
4. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
Messages
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1. Re: Senjecas on Wikifrath
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:28 pm (PDT)
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Pokorny gives "wiwer-" as a root meaning "squirrel." It is actually
> a root meaning "brown" with a reduplicated initial consonant.
> English has the word "viverrine" meaning belonging to the
> Viverridae, i.e., the civets & mongooses.
It seems to be somwehat widespread -- Welsh is "gwiwer", Lithuanian
"voverė". But I didn't know "viverrine" was related.
>> http://www2.arnes.si/~ssnmcrnom5/bela/mzupancic/VEVERICA.htm
>
> This is an interesting site. I assume it's in Czech, but I'm no
> expert. Familiar to me also is the word "jelen" for some kind of
> deer. There is a PIE root "elen-" which means a deer. And "volk,"
> wolf, is from the PIE root "wlkwo-." And the bear is "medbar,"
> which has to do with honey-eating. The PIE root "medhu-" is given
> as meaning honey or mead.
.SI is Slovenia, so it's likely Slovene. The Serbo-Croatian words are
similar, but wolf is "vuk", for instance. Czech has "vlk". I can guess
the Senyecan word for "wolf" might be in the "ɱ" section (and it turns
out to be "ɱe̋lc̆es").
Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Dennis Paul Himes" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:31 pm (PDT)
Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm forwarding a (rather long) reply I recently made to Maarten van Wijk
> about a question he raised on the Linguist list. My main question to you
> all is:
>
> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
This is still being worked out in Seezzitonian, but for Gladilatian I
have:
fna word1 {fna word2} wo word3
"exactly one of word1 {or word2} or word3"
With two words this reduces to exclusive or.
hra word1 {hra word2} wo word3
"word1 {or word2} or word3" (inclusive or)
la word1 {la word2} wo word3
"even though word1 {and word2} still word3"
ma word1 {ma word2} we word3
"if word1 {and word2} then word3"
ra word1 {ra word2} we word3
"word1 {which is similar to word2} which is similar to word3"
sa word1 {sa word2} we word3
"word1 {which is word2} which is word3"
This is equivalent to apposition in English, and is used mostly for
names.
xa word1 {xa word2} we word3
"since word1 {and word2} therefore word3"
za word1 {za word2} we word3
"word1 {and word2} and word3"
For each conjunction there is no upper limit to the number of conjuncts.
Nested conjunctions are unambiguous due to having one word before the last
conjunct and another before the others. So A and B or C is:
za A we hra B wo C
for A and (B or C), and
hra za A we B wo C
for (A and B) or C
============================================================================
Dennis Paul Himes <> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.cshore.com/himes/dennis.htm
Gladilatian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/glad/lang.htm
Seezzitonian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/umuto/lang.htm
Disclaimer: "True, I talk of dreams; which are the children of an idle
brain, begot of nothing but vain fantasy; which is as thin of substance as
the air." - Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene iv Verse 96-99
Messages in this topic (43)
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2b. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:34 am (PDT)
Hi Dennis,
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, Dennis Paul Himes wrote:
[snip]
> >
> > In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
>
> This is still being worked out in Seezzitonian, but for Gladilatian I
> have:
>
> fna word1 {fna word2} wo word3
> "exactly one of word1 {or word2} or word3"
> With two words this reduces to exclusive or.
>
> hra word1 {hra word2} wo word3
> "word1 {or word2} or word3" (inclusive or)
>
> la word1 {la word2} wo word3
> "even though word1 {and word2} still word3"
>
> ma word1 {ma word2} we word3
> "if word1 {and word2} then word3"
>
> ra word1 {ra word2} we word3
> "word1 {which is similar to word2} which is similar to word3"
>
> sa word1 {sa word2} we word3
> "word1 {which is word2} which is word3"
> This is equivalent to apposition in English, and is used mostly for
> names.
>
> xa word1 {xa word2} we word3
> "since word1 {and word2} therefore word3"
>
> za word1 {za word2} we word3
> "word1 {and word2} and word3"
>
> For each conjunction there is no upper limit to the number of
> conjuncts.
A very practical system, I think. The structure "since A therefore B" is also
a good one; it's equivalent to the structure "if A then B" and the assertion of
"A". The following also partly answers my second question, about how closely
the system matches formal logical connectives:
> Nested conjunctions are unambiguous due to having one word before the last
> conjunct and another before the others. So A and B or C is:
> za A we hra B wo C
> for A and (B or C), and
> hra za A we B wo C
> for (A and B) or C
Using such "complemented conjunctions" gives a natural bracketing of logical
terms. Perhaps we might call them "self-segregating conjunctions"?
Dennis, you've used "wo" as the "complement" to your first two conjunctions,
and "we" as the "complement" to the rest. Since word order brackets them
unambiguously, it would be possible to use just one form (eg "wo") for all
complements, wouldn't it? Taking this one step futher, could the complement be
represented by the null morpheme Ø? Eg
za A hra B C = A and (B or C),
and
hra za A B C = (A and B) or C.
Hmm, this is starting to look a lot like RPN (Reverse Polish Notation)!
Regards,
Yahya
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Messages in this topic (43)
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3a. Kash "supplement" uploaded
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:46 pm (PDT)
After months of ignoring it....
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/supplement.htm
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:52 pm (PDT)
On 8/12/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After months of ignoring it....
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/supplement.htm
>
Cool!
The word "Añakrangota" on that page showed up in my browser with a
capital Cyrillic Tse in lieu of the ñ, even though it's in the form of
a 'ñ' entity and my encoding view is set to Unicode. I
started this message thinking I was reporting an error on the page,
but when I copied and pasted it came out fine... turns out my
browser's default font was - inexplicably - set to "Latinski", which
is is an 8-bit font with Cyrllic letters in the 0x80-0xFF block
(whether encoded in KOI8-R or ISO-8859-5 or MacCyrillic or something
else, I don't know). I blame my toddler. He's always messing things
up on the computer, and for a 2.5-year-old his ability to navigate
deep menus and file folders is a thing of wonder.
Looks good, Roger. But you need an index page so we can find other
Kash resources. :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:51 pm (PDT)
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> The word "Añakrangota" on that page showed up in my browser with a
> capital Cyrillic Tse in lieu of the ñ, even though it's in the form of
> a 'ñ' entity and my encoding view is set to Unicode. I
> started this message thinking I was reporting an error on the page,
> but when I copied and pasted it came out fine... turns out my
> browser's default font was - inexplicably - set to "Latinski", which
> is is an 8-bit font with Cyrllic letters in the 0x80-0xFF block
> (whether encoded in KOI8-R or ISO-8859-5 or MacCyrillic or something
> else, I don't know). I blame my toddler. He's always messing things
> up on the computer, and for a 2.5-year-old his ability to navigate
> deep menus and file folders is a thing of wonder.
LOL. For similar reasons, I keep my cats away from the keyboard whenever
possible.
>
> Looks good, Roger. But you need an index page so we can find other
> Kash resources. :)
There is, I'm sure-- it's called "contents" or "main page" in the various
links. The main URL is http://cinduworld.tripod.com/contents.htm
The only things that don't link to the rest of the site are some more or
less professional things dealing with Indonesian linguistics, and some more
or less temporary things like the Foucault Pendulum translation IIRC.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Kash "supplement" uploaded
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:13 am (PDT)
On 8/12/06, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Looks good, Roger. But you need an index page so we can find other
> > Kash resources. :)
>
> There is, I'm sure-- it's called "contents" or "main page" in the various
> links. The main URL is http://cinduworld.tripod.com/contents.htm
Ah! But you should rename it to "index.html" or whatever the tripod
index name is, so that the plain url "http://cinduworld.tripod.com";
will work. That's what I meant by 'index page".
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:32 am (PDT)
Hi all,
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 , H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 04:19:30PM -0600, Dirk Elzinga wrote:
> [...]
> > I think that a strict segregation of morphology and phonology is
> > probably a mistake in lg creation, whatever your analytical
> > predilections are.
>
> Wow, this has got to be one of those gems of insight that make it
> worthwhile to be on CONLANG. :-)
Indeed!
> > For me, most of the interest in morphology is in its interaction with
> > phonological forms. Stuff like ablaut, mutation, root-and-pattern
> > inflection, and reduplication depend heavily on the phonological
> > makeup of the language. If you have a morphology you like (that is,
> > you make distinctions among categories you think are interesting and
> > useful) look at making the morphology more dependent on the sound
> > structure of words--try out some ablaut, mutation, etc to liven up
> > both the phonology and morphology.
> [...]
>
> That's a very good idea. I think I should look into the phonological
> interactions of Tatari Faran's morphology. Right now, much of it in TF
> is still rather dry. Thinking over the idea in the context of natlangs,
> though---it is very true that morphology is heavily tied to phonology,
> and the two interact with each other in very interesting ways. I should
> keep that in mind next time---I have a tendency to over-analyse and
> compartmentalize things, which isn't always the best idea.
I also have a tendency (originating no doubt in my studies of mathematics and
logic) to record overly analytical interpretations of my discoveries. Luckily,
I have conlanging (along with music and poetry making) to confound me! ;-)
Eg, In Uiama, the particles, which consist of single vowels, are so overloaded
with different meanings that is very easy to construct examples with almost
arbitrarily long phrases consisting entirely of particles. This would
doubtless lead, in practice, to a very stuttering, broken sound to the
language, ar from the mellifluous flow that I hear in its poems and songs;
however, it is saved from this fate by the fact that the Uiama Makpo insert a
meaningless "m" between two successive vowels, whenever they feel the want of
more flow. This change has lead to several common sequences of particles
incorporating one or more intervocalic "m"s, and becoming lexicalised as words
with more restrictive meanings than the simple sequence of particles itself
requires. Similarly, a "w", "r" or "y" may join particles where there is
little likelihood of confusion with "u", "@" or "i" respectively, again
resulting in lexical words. It is also likely that some words beginning with
these se!
mivowels originally began with the corresponding vowel, eg "we" is thought to
have evolved from "u e". So far, I have not discerned any shifting of whole
classes of consonants; possibly the current set of consonant phonemes is the
end result of a long process of such changes. If any information comes to
light regarding ancestors of Uiama, I will do my best to share it with list
members.
> T
> --
> The best compiler is between your ears. -- Michael Abrash
Nice set of tags, you've got, Teoh!
Regards,
Yahya
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Messages in this topic (43)
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