There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Listen to Languages
From: Adam Walker
1b. Re: Listen to Languages
From: Hanuman Zhang
2. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Dennis Paul Himes
3a. "and"
From: Larry Sulky
3b. Re: "and"
From: Chris Bates
3c. Re: "and"
From: H. S. Teoh
4. Shahinai fictional language (Neil Gaiman)
From: Eldin Raigmore
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Listen to Languages
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:07 pm (PDT)
--- "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, thank (the) [Gg]od(s) for crazy religious
> people and their zeal to
> spread their gospel. A whole lot of linguistic work
> would never have gotten
> done otherwise. And we get nifty websites like that
> one. :)
Hrm. I don't exactly enjoy being called crazy,
because of my religious beliefs. This isn't exactly
the place for expressing anti-Christian bigotry.
Adam the "crazy" religious person who believes in
spreading the Gospel
9 Debostu averuns judidu ul regu, vaderuns in al via, ed iñi! erad vidandu sis
al steja fi averuns spichudu in il ojindi, gata ad vinid ed pedizud subra jundi
fuid al credura.
10 Vidindu al steja, niregoderuns rexundimindi.
Machu 2:9-10
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Listen to Languages
Posted by: "Hanuman Zhang" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:00 pm (PDT)
on 8/12/06 3:58 PM, Adam Walker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> --- "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>> Well, thank (the) [Gg]od(s) for crazy religious
>> people and their zeal to
>> spread their gospel. A whole lot of linguistic work
>> would never have gotten
>> done otherwise. And we get nifty websites like that
>> one. :)
>
> Hrm. I don't exactly enjoy being called crazy,
> because of my religious beliefs. This isn't exactly
> the place for expressing anti-Christian bigotry.
I think Mark was being humourous and using the word "crazy" in an admiring,
even "affectionate" fashion... basically thankful for the zeal with which
these good Christian folk do their work.
The possible and potential socio-cultural impact on a culture is another
story altogether and I won't go into that here, just point it out.
No Crown, no Cross...
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Dennis Paul Himes" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:34 pm (PDT)
Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
>>
>> This is still being worked out in Seezzitonian, but for Gladilatian I
>> have:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> hra word1 {hra word2} wo word3
>> "word1 {or word2} or word3" (inclusive or)
>>
>> ...
>>
>> za word1 {za word2} we word3
>> "word1 {and word2} and word3"
>>
>> For each conjunction there is no upper limit to the number of
>> conjuncts.
>
>> Nested conjunctions are unambiguous due to having one word before the last
>> conjunct and another before the others. So A and B or C is:
>> za A we hra B wo C
>> for A and (B or C), and
>> hra za A we B wo C
>> for (A and B) or C
>
> Using such "complemented conjunctions" gives a natural bracketing of
> logical terms. Perhaps we might call them "self-segregating
> conjunctions"?
Sure.
> Dennis, you've used "wo" as the "complement" to your first two
> conjunctions, and "we" as the "complement" to the rest. Since word order
> brackets them unambiguously, it would be possible to use just one form (eg
> "wo") for all complements, wouldn't it?
Yes.
> Taking this one step futher, could the complement be represented by the
> null morpheme Ã? Eg
> za A hra B C = A and (B or C),
> and
> hra za A B C = (A and B) or C.
Not for all conjunctions. For instance:
>> fna word1 {fna word2} wo word3
>> "exactly one of word1 {or word2} or word3"
fna A fna B wo C
is false if A, B, and C are all true, but
fna A wo fna B wo C
is true if A, B, and C are all true.
If we left out the "wo"s they would both be "fna A fna B C".
> Hmm, this is starting to look a lot like RPN (Reverse Polish Notation)!
It actually looks more like regular Polish Notation.
============================================================================
Dennis Paul Himes <> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.cshore.com/himes/dennis.htm
Gladilatian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/glad/lang.htm
Seezzitonian page: http://home.cshore.com/himes/umuto/lang.htm
Disclaimer: "True, I talk of dreams; which are the children of an idle
brain, begot of nothing but vain fantasy; which is as thin of substance as
the air." - Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene iv Verse 96-99
Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. "and"
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:03 am (PDT)
Hi, All--
When "and" is used between independent clauses we call it a conjunction:
We went to the market and you went to the cinema.
Question 1: What grammatical role is "and" playing when it separates
items in a list:
We went to the market and the cinema.
Doesn't seem like a conjunction there.
Question 2: And is there still a different grammatical role in this example:
We went to the market and away from all this big-city noise.
Or is this just a conjunction with some words omitted?
(Not surprisingly, doing a google search for "and" isn't very helpful. :-) )
Thanks --
--larry
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: "and"
Posted by: "Chris Bates" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:11 am (PDT)
In all your examples "and" is a conjunction, it's just joining different
kinds of things together. And in English can be used to join together
clauses, NPs, PPs and various other things, as long as it's joining
together two things with the same basic function (you can't conjoin a
clause and a PP for instance). In other languages, there may be
different words all translated as "and" which are more specific in what
they can join together.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: "and"
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:28 pm (PDT)
On Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 05:03:34PM +0100, Chris Bates wrote:
> In all your examples "and" is a conjunction, it's just joining
> different kinds of things together. And in English can be used to join
> together clauses, NPs, PPs and various other things, as long as it's
> joining together two things with the same basic function (you can't
> conjoin a clause and a PP for instance). In other languages, there may
> be different words all translated as "and" which are more specific in
> what they can join together.
In Tatari Faran, there is a distinction between nominal conjunction
(conjunction joining nouns) and verbal/clausal conjunction (conjunction
joining verbs or clauses).
The postclitic _ei_ [ej] is used for joining nouns, and is suffixed to
the conjoined noun, sorta like the Latin -que. For example:
samat sa. - a man
samat sa kiran sa ei. - a man and a youth.
tiki sei. - a rabbit
tiki sei misai si'ei. - a rabbit and a deer.
(_si'ei_ = euphonic contraction of _sei_ + _ei_).
The conjunction _hena_ [hEna] is used for joining clauses:
huu na hamra tiki kei aram, - I see a rabbit,
tiki sei hena pamra papa. - and the rabbit runs away.
_hena_ appears after the subject NP in the conjoined clause, unless the
NP has been elided.
The distinction is not complete, however. The nominal conjunction _ei_
can also appear in adverbial position, in which case its meaning shifts
to "also":
huu na hamra ei misai kei aram.
I also see a deer.
On the other hand, _hena_ can never conjoin nouns.
In Ebisédian, nominal and verbal/clausal conjunctions are completely
distinct, and cannot be used interchangeably. The conjunction _zo_ [zo]
always joins nouns, and the conjunction _keve_ [kEBE] always joins
clauses.
<ObIPA>
Here's how you pronounce these sample sentences:
samat sa ['samat sa]
samat sa [,samat sa 'ki4an sa?ej]
tiki sei ['ti'ki sej]
tiki sei misai si'ei [,ti,ki sej 'misaj si?ej]
huu na hamra tiki kei aram ['hu:na ham4a 'ti'ki kej a4am]
tiki sei hena pamra papa ['ti'ki sej hEna . 'pam4a papa]
huu na hamra ei misai kei aram [,hu:na 'ham4a?ej 'misaj kej a4am]
The IPA primary stress mark ['] indicates high pitch, and the secondary
stress mark [,] indicates mid-high pitch. The pitch always drops to low
at the end of the sentence, especially on the complement.
I'm not sure how to indicate hiatus or short pause in IPA... there's
always an implied pause between the subject NP and the verb, and in the
6th example, the pause is especially prominent so I noted it with a [.].
</ObIPA>
T
--
Latin's a dead language, as dead as can be; it killed off all the
Romans, and now it's killing me! -- Schoolboy
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Shahinai fictional language (Neil Gaiman)
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:21 am (PDT)
In "Keepsakes and Treasures: a Love Story", a short story copyrighted 1999
by Neil Gaiman, written for Al Sarrontonio's collection "999", the
following is said:
"'Legendary' is a good word to use for the Shahinai. It means I'd never
heard of them and didn't know anyone who had, and once I started looking
for them even the people who had heard of them didn't believe in them.
"'After all, my good friend,' my pet Russian academic said, handing over
his report, 'you're talking about a race of people the sole evidence for
the existence of which is half a dozen lines in Herodotus, a poem in
the "Thousand and One Nights", and a speech in the "Manuscrit Trouvé à
Saragosse". Not what we call reliable sources.'"
and
"I phoned MacLeod's room at the Savoy. Told him to come and meet me on the
bridge.
"His suit was, if anything, a louder check than the one he'd worn on
Tuesday. He gave me a buff envelope filled with word-processed pages: a
sort of homemade Shahinai-English phrase book. 'Are you hungry?', 'You
must bathe now.', 'Open your mouth.'; anything Mr. Alice might need to
communicate.
"I put the envelope in the pocket of my mac.
'Fancy a spot of sightseeing?' I asked, and Professor MacLeod said it was
always good to see a city with a native.
"'This work is a philological oddity and a linguistic delight,' said
MacLeod as we walked along the Embankment. 'The Shahinai speak a language
that has points in common with both the Aramaic and the Finno-Ugric family
of languages. It's the language that Christ might have spoken if he'd
written the epistle to the primitive Estonians. Very few loanwords, for
that matter. I have a theory that they must have been forced to make quite
a few abrupt departures in their time. Do you have my payment on you?'"
--------
Does anyone have any knowledge of Shahinai, or of any conlang that might be
similar to Shahinai? As if, perchance, St. Paul had preached the gospel to
the ancient Estonians? Or any other conlang that is similar to both the
Aramaic language and the Finno-Ugric family?
If not, would anyone like to give it a try? How would one go about that?
-----
eldin
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
