There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Case Creation
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1.2. Re: Case Creation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1.3. Re: Case Creation
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1.4. Re: Case Creation
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.5. Re: Case Creation
From: A. da Mek
1.6. Re: Case Creation
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.7. Re: Case Creation
From: ðÅÔÒ òÉÈÁÒÄÏ×ÉÞ ëÌÁÒË
1.8. Re: Case Creation
From: ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ
2.1. Chinese pronouns (was: Re: Case Creation)
From: Eugene Oh
2.2. Re: Chinese pronouns (was: Re: Case Creation)
From: Alex Fink
3a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
3b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Alex Fink
4a. Re: Dictionary Presentation Question
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1.1. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:19 am ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:58 AM, ðÅÔÒ òÉÈÁÒÄÏ×ÉÞ ëÌÁÒË <[email protected]
> wrote:
> On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 10:42:43 you wrote:
> > How about emotional experiences for experiential cases?
> Of course. íÎÅ ÇÒÕÓÔÎÏ (To-me sad), ÍÎÅ ÖÁÌËÏ (To-me sorry/pity),
> ÍÎÅ
> ÓËÕÞÎÏ (To-me bored). Interestingly enough, positive emotions are generally
> more direct in Russian: Ñ ÓÞÁÓÔÌÉ× (I'm happy), Ñ ÒÁÄ (I'm glad).
> :Peter
>
Well, how about "íÎÅ ÐÒÉÑÔÎÏ"(I feel pleasd), "íÎÅ ×ÅÓÅÌÏ" (I'm happy),
"íÎÅ ÈÏÒÏÛÏ" (I feel good) then? These are of common use also.
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.2. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:37 am ((PST))
Grammatical case. Maybe I don't get the confussion.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Case Creation
> On 2 February 2012 07:42, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> How about emotional experiences for experiential cases?
>>
>>
> Nicole, we are getting confused, because we have no idea what you mean by
> "case". Your different posts seem to all use the word "case" with a
> different meaning, so we cannot give meaningful advice. Could you just
> slow
> down a bit and *explain* to us what you mean by "case"? And I don't mean
> giving us more and more examples, as they are only adding to the
> confusion.
> What I mean is you giving us a *definition* of the word "case" as you are
> using it right now. Please tell us what you mean when you use the word
> "case", and we will be able to give you meaningful answers that will be
> useful to you. Right now all we are doing is grabbing at straws and doing
> stabs in the dark because we have no idea what you are talking about. The
> word "case" has many different meanings
> (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caselists *14* definitions!), so
> confusion is understandable. Please help us
> clear up that confusion!
>
> Thanks in advance!
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.3. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:02 am ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Grammatical case. Maybe I don't get the confussion.
Well, Nicole, that;s the point. Mos people here are used with the notion of
case as more or less a modification of the noun or a pronoun with respect
to the verb. And this modification, in turn, may have many different
meanings and may be represented by virtually anything. It may be a prefix
to a word, a postfix, a change of sounds in the root, a cjange of a
auxiliary word, such as article. As for its meaning, beside the usual cases
You can fancy somethin like Boatative case, to mark that something is
happening in the boat: I.BOA fish.INF = I'm fishing in a boat.
Now we are just trying to undersand:
1. whether Your audio case is the case in our meaning i.e. something
modifying a particular noun (pronoun, adjective) , and
2. What should it really mark.
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <
> [email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Case Creation
>
>
> On 2 February 2012 07:42, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> How about emotional experiences for experiential cases?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicole, we are getting confused, because we have no idea what you mean
>> by
>> "case". Your different posts seem to all use the word "case" with a
>> different meaning, so we cannot give meaningful advice. Could you just
>> slow
>> down a bit and *explain* to us what you mean by "case"? And I don't mean
>> giving us more and more examples, as they are only adding to the
>> confusion.
>> What I mean is you giving us a *definition* of the word "case" as you are
>> using it right now. Please tell us what you mean when you use the word
>> "case", and we will be able to give you meaningful answers that will be
>> useful to you. Right now all we are doing is grabbing at straws and doing
>> stabs in the dark because we have no idea what you are talking about. The
>> word "case" has many different meanings
>> (http://en.wiktionary.org/**wiki/caselists<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caselists>*14*
>> definitions!), so
>> confusion is understandable. Please help us
>> clear up that confusion!
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>> --
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>>
>> http://christophoronomicon.**blogspot.com/<http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/>
>> http://www.**christophoronomicon.nl/ <http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/>
>>
>
Kolya
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.4. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:34 am ((PST))
On 2 February 2012 09:37, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Grammatical case. Maybe I don't get the confussion.
> Nicole Andrews
>
>
If you mean *grammatical case*, then the confusion is right there in what
you wrote. Grammatical case applies to nouns, and nouns only (barring
agreement features, suffixaufnahme and surdéclinaison, but we're not
talking about those here), so saying something like "subjunctive mood case"
is nonsensical and confusing (it's "subjunctive mood", and it applies to
verbs only). Also, you other "cases" are just as confusing: case marks the
*function* of a noun in a sentence (as in subject, object, indirect object,
location, instrument, object of a preposition, etc.). But what *function*
does your "audio case" mark? What is an "experiential case"? I don't mind
quirky denominations, but you need to explain what *function of the noun in
the sentence* those different cases mark in order for us to be able to
understand what you are talking about. As Nikolay wrote, you can have very
fancy cases, but just naming them isn't enough. You need to tell us *what
they are supposed to do*. When you're not using standard case names, you
need to explain what function they are encoding, otherwise we're just left
with labels we just can't make heads or tails of.
Things are probably very clear in your mind, but you're not giving us
enough information to gain the same clarity in ours.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.5. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:32 am ((PST))
>> To feel something is a verb.
> you're wrong about feeling being a verb
"feel" is a verb.
"feeling" is a derived verbal noun (abstract), AKA gerund.
"feeling" is also a participle, which is a verbal adjective or adverb.
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.6. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:54 am ((PST))
On 2 February 2012 13:32, A. da Mek <[email protected]> wrote:
> To feel something is a verb.
>>>
>>
> you're wrong about feeling being a verb
>>
>
> "feel" is a verb.
> "feeling" is a derived verbal noun (abstract), AKA gerund.
> "feeling" is also a participle, which is a verbal adjective or adverb.
>
What Nikolay was saying (I think) is that there is nothing universal about
"feeling" always being expressed using a verb. So while "to feel" is a verb
(and thanks to English's slippery parts of speech, "a feel" is also a noun
:) ), there is no universal constraint that says that all expressions of
feeling must be handled through verbs (nor do they always have to be
handled with nouns, or adjectives, etc.).
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.7. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "ðÅÔÒ òÉÈÁÒÄÏ×ÉÞ ëÌÁÒË" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:43 am ((PST))
On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 12:19:14 you wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:58 AM, ðÅÔÒ òÉÈÁÒÄÏ×ÉÞ ëÌÁÒË
> <[email protected]
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 10:42:43 you wrote:
> > > How about emotional experiences for experiential cases?
> > >
> > Of course. íÎÅ ÇÒÕÓÔÎÏ (To-me sad), ÍÎÅ ÖÁÌËÏ (To-me sorry/pity),
> >
> > ÍÎÅ
> > ÓËÕÞÎÏ (To-me bored). Interestingly enough, positive emotions are
> > generally more direct in Russian: Ñ ÓÞÁÓÔÌÉ× (I'm happy), Ñ ÒÁÄ (I'm
> > glad).
> >
> > :Peter
>
> Well, how about "íÎÅ ÐÒÉÑÔÎÏ"(I feel pleasd), "íÎÅ ×ÅÓÅÌÏ" (I'm happy),
> "íÎÅ ÈÏÒÏÛÏ" (I feel good) then? These are of common use also.
Of course! What I was trying to say was that there are more positive
emotions expressed with Ñ, rather than ÍÎÅ. (Of course, this also allows for
more shades of meaning, e.g. ÍÎÅ ÈÏÒÏÛÏ vs. Ñ ÈÏÒÏÛ. :)
:Peter
Messages in this topic (28)
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1.8. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:53 am ((PST))
On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 13:34:11 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> Things are probably very clear in your mind, but you're not giving us
> enough information to gain the same clarity in ours.
Indeed. This is not Twitter; you are not only allowed, but encouraged
to
post more than 140 characters! :) Allow your inner loquacity to find full
expression! That shouldn't be hard for a budding writer, and the quality of
the answers you receive will correspondingly improve.
Regards,
:Peter
Messages in this topic (28)
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2.1. Chinese pronouns (was: Re: Case Creation)
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:35 am ((PST))
FWIW, the distinction only in the modern era arose post contact with western
languages and Christianity (hence the four variants corresponding exactly to
he/she/it/God). Like Japanese, Chinese (in all its flavours) did not use
pronouns as much as repeating the title or name of a person. Even today in
Taiwan some people continue to refer to both men and women as ¥L.
The word itself originally meant "other" anyway.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
2 Feb 2012, ÈW 03:42, George Corley <[email protected]> ÈcÈUÈeÈ^ÈgÈUÈa(ÈU):
>> IIRC, ¥L and ¦o are pronounced identically in Mandarin, and they're both
> third person pronouns. But there's a gender distinction in the written
> language. Hypothetically something similar could be done with case,
> no? Imagine adding noun class to English by putting <¡ñ> after the
> written form of some words, and <¡ð> after others.
>
> I have always contended that ¥L¡A¦o¡A¥¦ and Í¢ are pronounced the same because
> they are the same damn word with four different characters. This jives
> with my (admittedly unscientific) observation that Chinese speakers tend to
> confuse "he" and "she" in English.
>
>>> A case that is spoken. I'm reading the chapter on case creation, and I'm
> plan to use the five cases the author has created, and wondered about audio
> cases. Maybe I should call it a tone case.
>
>> What author are you talking about? I think I missed the part where
> you mentioned the book.
>
> I don't think it was mentioned. I'm still confused as to whether we are
> talking about grammatical case or graphical case -- which affects the
> advice I would give very greatly.
Messages in this topic (28)
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2.2. Re: Chinese pronouns (was: Re: Case Creation)
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:07 am ((PST))
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:34:47 +0000, Eugene Oh <[email protected]> wrote:
>FWIW, the distinction only in the modern era arose post contact with
western languages and Christianity (hence the four variants corresponding
exactly to he/she/it/God). Like Japanese, Chinese (in all its flavours) did
not use pronouns as much as repeating the title or name of a person. Even
today in Taiwan some people continue to refer to both men and women as U+4ED6.
I thought it was not just any old contact, but more precisely an intentional
introduction by 1920s translators of western works to give an analogue to
"he" and "she". -- Yes, there, per Wiktionary: <Linguist Liu Bannong is
credited with coining this use in September 1920>.
It's also, personally, one of my very least favourite linguistic
developments. Boo for destruction of cross-linguistic diversity (SAE has
sex on pronouns so everyone's got to); boo for sundering the spoken language
a little from the written; boo for forcing mention of people's sex at every
juncture, which can only be a step backwards in feminist and social justice
&c senses, and boo especially in this wise for making maleness unmarked!
Alex
Messages in this topic (28)
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3a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:04 am ((PST))
On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 01:59:13PM -0800, David Peterson wrote:
> And so I gave it a look. The document she sent to us was a *ONE HUNDRED AND
> SEVENTY page grammar and lexicon* of a language she called SrÃnawésinâa
> language she's been working on for about twenty years. And the form of the
> grammar was rather unique. Rather than being a simple description, the
> language is presented as a linguistics graduate student's notes on a document
> she found in the old dissertation file of the linguistics department at NYU.
> The entire work is a grammar presented as a work of fiction.
>
> Over the coming months, we're going to publish the full grammar of
> SrÃnawésin at Fiat Lingua, the first installment of which has gone up today
> [1].
Wow. My attitude towards fantasy fiction mirrors that of the narrator, yet I
found it an incredibly compelling read. For a moment I found myself thinking
that maybe the frame story about discovering Davis' notes wasn't a conceit, but
actually happened to the author.
Can't wait for the next installments. Judging by the introduction, the whole
thing ought to be published as a book.
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
You Can't Have Your Kate And Edith Too.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:11 am ((PST))
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:59:13 -0800, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know about an incredible find
that basically dropped into our laps at Fiat Lingua.
[...]
Seconding (or nth-ing) the wow and can't wait to see more. (Cyclical tense,
hm? And can they really not have numbers?)
This calls for a Smiley Award nomination, surely!
Alex
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Dictionary Presentation Question
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:32 am ((PST))
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 20:29:42 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>Some verbs have combining forms where a tonic /a/ changes to /i/ (I think a
holdover of IE *schwa?)--- capio > -cip- as in recipio receptum. excipio
exceptum; facio > -fic- in many, conficio confectum, sufficio, deficio
defectum etc. There may be others, and I don't recall offhand if other tonic
vowels undergo changes............but this I guess falls under the apophony
class.
AIUI not a holdover of IE schwa, but vowel reduction during Latin's
initial-stress phase. _Every_ short vowel in a medial open syllable in
Latin regularly develops to /i/, or /e/ if an /r/ follows; occasionally a
/u/ will surface near labials. In a medial closed syllable the reductions
didn't merge quite so much, and /i/ and /e/ both appear.
Short-vowelled verbs whose tonic vowel doesn't weaken under prefixation have
had it restored analogically.
Alex
Messages in this topic (12)
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