There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Nikolay Ivankov
1c. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Brian
1d. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Dirk Elzinga
2a. Ni'eewo
From: A. da Mek
2b. Re: Ni'eewo
From: Matthew Turnbull
3.1. Another New Year
From: Roger Mills
4.1. Re: Case Creation
From: Logan Kearsley
4.2. Re: Case Creation
From: Brian
4.3. Re: Case Creation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
4.4. Re: Case Creation
From: Sam Stutter
4.5. Re: Case Creation
From: Eugene Oh
4.6. Re: Case Creation
From: Padraic Brown
4.7. Re: Case Creation
From: Tristan
5a. a tale of two vowels
From: Matthew Boutilier
5b. Re: a tale of two vowels
From: Daniel Prohaska
5c. Re: a tale of two vowels
From: Michael Everson
6a. Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
From: Herman Miller
6b. Re: Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
From: Padraic Brown
6c. Re: Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
From: Charlie Brickner
7a. Re: Wh-question syntax idea
From: Elliott Lash
8a. New language universal!
From: taliesin the storyteller
8b. Re: New language universal!
From: David Peterson
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:42 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:59:13 -0800, David Peterson wrote:
> I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know about an incredible find that
> basically dropped into our laps at Fiat Lingua.
>
> [...]
>
> Over the coming months, we're going to publish the full grammar of
> Srínawésin at Fiat Lingua, the first installment of which has gone up today
> [1]. As far as I know, Madeline hasn't had any connection to any of the
> conlanging communities, so this language has really kind of dropped out of
> the sky. I invite you to give it a look (and hopefully I can encourage
> Madeline to join the Conlang list).
>
> Oh, and a Fiat Lingua-related note: While the Srínawésin grammar will have
> about eight or nine installments, we will publish articles in the interim if
> we feel they're timely, or just to break things up a bit.
>
> [1] http://fiatlingua.org/?p=125
Awesome, and piquing my interest in seeing more of it. Rock on!
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 10:39 am ((PST))
Amazing! For I'm not a fan of reading longish texts, but once I've started
reading it became hard to stop.
Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 10:54 am ((PST))
I had that same "problem". I looked at how long it was and decided I was only
going to read a few paragraphs. Next thing I know I was finished with it and
wanted to read more!
------Original Message------
From: Nikolay Ivankov
Sender: Conlang
To: Conlang
ReplyTo: Conlang
Subject: Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Sent: Feb 2, 2012 12:39
Amazing! For I'm not a fan of reading longish texts, but once I've started
reading it became hard to stop.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Dirk Elzinga" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:05 am ((PST))
Sweet! I've been wanting to write up the grammar for Miapimoquitch using a
similar conceit for quite a while, but now I've been scooped. Masterfully
done.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:59 PM, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know about an incredible find
> that basically dropped into our laps at Fiat Lingua.
>
> Last November, we got an e-mail at [email protected] from Madeline Palmer.
> She said she didn't know, but thought we might be interested in the
> attached file for our website. The title of the e-mail was "Draconic
> Language". Initially, I dismissed itin fact, I'll admit I didn't even look
> at it (I thought it was an "analysis" of the Dragon language from Skyrim),
> and may not have if Don Boozer hadn't alerted me and said it was worth a
> look.
>
> And so I gave it a look. The document she sent to us was a *ONE HUNDRED
> AND SEVENTY page grammar and lexicon* of a language she called Srínawésina
> language she's been working on for about twenty years. And the form of the
> grammar was rather unique. Rather than being a simple description, the
> language is presented as a linguistics graduate student's notes on a
> document she found in the old dissertation file of the linguistics
> department at NYU. The entire work is a grammar presented as a work of
> fiction.
>
> Over the coming months, we're going to publish the full grammar of
> Srínawésin at Fiat Lingua, the first installment of which has gone up today
> [1]. As far as I know, Madeline hasn't had any connection to any of the
> conlanging communities, so this language has really kind of dropped out of
> the sky. I invite you to give it a look (and hopefully I can encourage
> Madeline to join the Conlang list).
>
> Oh, and a Fiat Lingua-related note: While the Srínawésin grammar will have
> about eight or nine installments, we will publish articles in the interim
> if we feel they're timely, or just to break things up a bit.
>
> [1] http://fiatlingua.org/?p=125
>
> David Peterson
> LCS President
> [email protected]
> www.conlang.org
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Ni'eewo
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 8:09 am ((PST))
If thou visitest the land of Ni'eewo and from the gesticulation of natives
understandest that they are asking: "Who art thou? Where art thou camest
from?", then the following glossary may be useful to thee:
sosno | foreigner
Fepne | Indian
Fofse | European
Fodse | Russian
Sopfo | Polish
Tedne | Scandinavian
Fopto | German
Fopne | Gaul
Sesne | French
Fedne | Parisian
Fefse | American
Feflo | Californian
And if thou wantest to buy something there, thou needest to know on what day
of week the next market will be:
Tosno | Sunday
Fopfo | Monday
Sopno | Wednesday
Sodto | Thursday
Thou mayst pay with Roman coins:
ne | as
ta | sestertius
fe | quinar
lo | denar
or with precious metals:
fesne | silver
sosne | gold
fedwe | platinum
tedto | mithril
Other metals are:
fosne | copper
fepto | tin
tedso | iron
sopto | lead
If thou askest which way to go, here are cardinal directions:
no | north
te | east
fa | southeast
so | south
we | west
la | northwest
And here are several other words:
tesno | new
fedno | heavy
fefte | sky
fepfo | earth
nu | whole
ö | with; and
e | without; odd (without a partner)
o | even
'ee | is
Now thou mayst be asking: "How can I remember all these similarly sounding
words?"
Fortunately, there is a simple mnemonic:
0 NO NOrth no
½ na
1 oNE ne
1½ northeast
2 TwO to
2½ ta
3 ThrEe East te
3½
4 FOur fo
4½ southeast fa
5 FivE fe
5½
6 Six SOuth so
6½ sa
7 SEven se
7½ southwest
8 eight wo = ni 010
8½ wa
9 NINE WEst we = nine 011
9½
10 ten lo = nito 012
10½ northwest la
11 eLEven le = nite 013
11½
12 nifo 014
... ...
15 nise 017
16 toni 020
17 tonine 021
... ...
64 tu 0100
512 fi 01000
4K su 010000
32K si 0100000
256K wu 01000000
... ...
So the numerals are in octal system and the weight is formed by the raising
of the vowel of the position.
The vowel of 6 and the words for 8 and 10 are assigned analogically to
regular alternation of "o" and "e" in other words.
The vowel "a" is placed between "o" and "e".
The name "Ni'eewo" thus means literally "010=8".
Now how to create a word for a chemical element?
Simply write the subshell which is not full,
or if all subshells are full, write that the next subshell has no electrons.
See for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_configurations_of_the_elements_%28data_page%29
tosno, 2s0, helium (Sun, Sunday)
tesno, 3s0, neon (new)
tedne, 3d1, scandium (Scandinavian)
tedto, 3d2, titaniun (mithril)
tedso, 3d6, iron
fosne, 4s1, copper
fopne, 4p1, gallium (Gaul)
fopto, 4p2, germanium (German)
fopfo, 4p4, selenium (Moon, Monday)
fodse, 4d7, ruthenim (Russian)
fesne, 5s1, silver
fepne, 5p1, indium (Indian)
fepto, 5p2, tin
fepfo, 5p4, tellurium (earth)
sosno, 6s0, xenon (foreign, foreigner)
fedno, 5d0, barium (heavy)
fofse, 4f7, europium (European)
fedne, 5d1, lutetium (Parisian)
fedwe, 5d9, platinum
sosne, 6s1, gold
sopno, 6p0, mercury (Odin, Wednesday)
sopto, 6p2, lead
sopfo, 6p4, polonium (Polish)
sesne, 7s1, francium (French)
sodto, 6d2, thorium (Thor, Thursday)
fefte, 5f3, uranium (sky)
fefse, 5f7, americium (American)
feflo, 5f10, californium (Californian)
Ni'eewo script:
Cardinal direction ideograms and their syllabic value:
â no
â te
â fa
â so
â we
â la
thus:
| o
- e
\ a
^ n
â f
> t
v s
< w
â l
and their combinations:
+ ö (oe)
and similarly also å (ao) and ä (ae).
For the sake of symetry:
/ y (a close central vowel)
and its combinations u (oy), ü (öy), i (ey) and ø (ay):
x ø (a mid central vowel, shwa)
The meaning of the consonantal graphemes â and â is not known to me.
Other syllabograms:
â fo (4)
â fe (5)
â lo (10=012)
â le (11=013)
â³ ne (1)
â· to (2)
â½ se (5)
â wo (8)
Syllabograms for the glottal stop with a long vowel:
|| 'oo
= 'ee
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Ni'eewo
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 10:06 am ((PST))
How do you specify ions and isotopes with this naming system?
On 2/2/12, A. da Mek <[email protected]> wrote:
> If thou visitest the land of Ni'eewo and from the gesticulation of natives
> understandest that they are asking: "Who art thou? Where art thou camest
> from?", then the following glossary may be useful to thee:
>
> sosno | foreigner
> Fepne | Indian
> Fofse | European
> Fodse | Russian
> Sopfo | Polish
> Tedne | Scandinavian
> Fopto | German
> Fopne | Gaul
> Sesne | French
> Fedne | Parisian
> Fefse | American
> Feflo | Californian
>
> And if thou wantest to buy something there, thou needest to know on what day
> of week the next market will be:
>
> Tosno | Sunday
> Fopfo | Monday
> Sopno | Wednesday
> Sodto | Thursday
>
> Thou mayst pay with Roman coins:
>
> ne | as
> ta | sestertius
> fe | quinar
> lo | denar
>
> or with precious metals:
>
> fesne | silver
> sosne | gold
> fedwe | platinum
> tedto | mithril
>
> Other metals are:
>
> fosne | copper
> fepto | tin
> tedso | iron
> sopto | lead
>
> If thou askest which way to go, here are cardinal directions:
>
> no | north
> te | east
> fa | southeast
> so | south
> we | west
> la | northwest
>
> And here are several other words:
>
> tesno | new
> fedno | heavy
> fefte | sky
> fepfo | earth
> nu | whole
> ö | with; and
> e | without; odd (without a partner)
> o | even
> 'ee | is
>
> Now thou mayst be asking: "How can I remember all these similarly sounding
> words?"
> Fortunately, there is a simple mnemonic:
>
> 0 NO NOrth no
> ½ na
> 1 oNE ne
> 1½ northeast
> 2 TwO to
> 2½ ta
> 3 ThrEe East te
> 3½
> 4 FOur fo
> 4½ southeast fa
> 5 FivE fe
> 5½
> 6 Six SOuth so
> 6½ sa
> 7 SEven se
> 7½ southwest
> 8 eight wo = ni 010
> 8½ wa
> 9 NINE WEst we = nine 011
> 9½
> 10 ten lo = nito 012
> 10½ northwest la
> 11 eLEven le = nite 013
> 11½
> 12 nifo 014
> ... ...
> 15 nise 017
> 16 toni 020
> 17 tonine 021
> ... ...
> 64 tu 0100
> 512 fi 01000
> 4K su 010000
> 32K si 0100000
> 256K wu 01000000
> ... ...
>
> So the numerals are in octal system and the weight is formed by the raising
> of the vowel of the position.
>
> The vowel of 6 and the words for 8 and 10 are assigned analogically to
> regular alternation of "o" and "e" in other words.
> The vowel "a" is placed between "o" and "e".
>
> The name "Ni'eewo" thus means literally "010=8".
>
> Now how to create a word for a chemical element?
> Simply write the subshell which is not full,
> or if all subshells are full, write that the next subshell has no electrons.
> See for example
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_configurations_of_the_elements_%28data_page%29
>
> tosno, 2s0, helium (Sun, Sunday)
> tesno, 3s0, neon (new)
> tedne, 3d1, scandium (Scandinavian)
> tedto, 3d2, titaniun (mithril)
> tedso, 3d6, iron
> fosne, 4s1, copper
> fopne, 4p1, gallium (Gaul)
> fopto, 4p2, germanium (German)
> fopfo, 4p4, selenium (Moon, Monday)
> fodse, 4d7, ruthenim (Russian)
> fesne, 5s1, silver
> fepne, 5p1, indium (Indian)
> fepto, 5p2, tin
> fepfo, 5p4, tellurium (earth)
> sosno, 6s0, xenon (foreign, foreigner)
> fedno, 5d0, barium (heavy)
> fofse, 4f7, europium (European)
> fedne, 5d1, lutetium (Parisian)
> fedwe, 5d9, platinum
> sosne, 6s1, gold
> sopno, 6p0, mercury (Odin, Wednesday)
> sopto, 6p2, lead
> sopfo, 6p4, polonium (Polish)
> sesne, 7s1, francium (French)
> sodto, 6d2, thorium (Thor, Thursday)
> fefte, 5f3, uranium (sky)
> fefse, 5f7, americium (American)
> feflo, 5f10, californium (Californian)
>
>
> Ni'eewo script:
>
> Cardinal direction ideograms and their syllabic value:
>
> â no
> â te
> â fa
> â so
> â we
> â la
>
> thus:
>
> | o
> - e
> \ a
> ^ n
> â f
>> t
> v s
> < w
> â l
>
> and their combinations:
>
> + ö (oe)
>
> and similarly also å (ao) and ä (ae).
>
> For the sake of symetry:
>
> / y (a close central vowel)
>
> and its combinations u (oy), ü (öy), i (ey) and ø (ay):
>
> x ø (a mid central vowel, shwa)
>
> The meaning of the consonantal graphemes â and â is not known to me.
>
> Other syllabograms:
>
> â fo (4)
> â fe (5)
> â lo (10=012)
> â le (11=013)
> â³ ne (1)
> â· to (2)
> â½ se (5)
> â wo (8)
>
> Syllabograms for the glottal stop with a long vowel:
>
> || 'oo
> = 'ee
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. Another New Year
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:37 am ((PST))
At 6:19 AM EST (11:19 UTC) here on earth, clocks on Cindu clicked over from
20:49 lalap 28 açulus 759 p.v to 01:00 lembrim 1 açumbres 760, with all the
appropriate celebrations, drunken and otherwise.
pehan velu minda!!!
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 10:48 am ((PST))
On 1 February 2012 23:35, ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑÐ´Ð¾Ð²Ð¸Ñ ÐлаÑк
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 09:45:58 you wrote:
>> Do cases have to apply to nouns and verbs? It's another planet. To feel
>> something is a verb.
> No, cases only apply to nouns. (Of course, it's possible to construct a
> system in which the verb shows the case of the nouns in the sentence,
> And of course, you're wrong about feeling being a verb. :) In Russian,
> "Ðне Ñ
олодно" (Mne kholodno) is literally "To-me cold". This is
> actually a
> common construction in languages, where feelings and impressions are used with
> some form of indirect, dative, or experiential case.
Are there languages with specific stimulus cases (the complement to
experiencer)? Or, since yes/no questions are generally bad and AN
Probably ADEW, what languages do that and how do they use it?
I.e., a special case for specifying the object of sensory verbs, or
the cause of a sensory experience, so instead of "Me-DAT cold" you'd
have "Me-NOM cold-STIM".
-l.
Messages in this topic (36)
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4.2. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:11 am ((PST))
In Khevreþy I use Me-REST* cold-ADJ.
*Restemative is a case I came up with that I use for gnomic tenses, titles, or
any general sentence that doesn't have a verb i.e. copula formations, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>
Sender: Constructed Languages List <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 11:48:54
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Case Creation
On 1 February 2012 23:35, ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑÐ´Ð¾Ð²Ð¸Ñ ÐлаÑк
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thursday, 02 February, 2012 09:45:58 you wrote:
>> Do cases have to apply to nouns and verbs? It's another planet. To feel
>> something is a verb.
> No, cases only apply to nouns. (Of course, it's possible to construct a
> system in which the verb shows the case of the nouns in the sentence,
> And of course, you're wrong about feeling being a verb. :) In Russian,
> "Ðне Ñ
олодно" (Mne kholodno) is literally "To-me cold". This is
> actually a
> common construction in languages, where feelings and impressions are used with
> some form of indirect, dative, or experiential case.
Are there languages with specific stimulus cases (the complement to
experiencer)? Or, since yes/no questions are generally bad and AN
Probably ADEW, what languages do that and how do they use it?
I.e., a special case for specifying the object of sensory verbs, or
the cause of a sensory experience, so instead of "Me-DAT cold" you'd
have "Me-NOM cold-STIM".
-l.
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
4.3. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 9:17 pm ((PST))
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Hi, I reached my allowed message number yesterday, so couldn't respnd to this
topic. The audio case would mark the sensory experience, which I guess would
make it a sensory case.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
4.4. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:12 am ((PST))
Still not getting it...
Are we talking evidentials here? Because an "audio case" as I'm imagining it,
could only be the subject of the verbs "hear" and "listen" and as an indirect
object of "speak" or "shout". Which would rather be a waste of time.
What do you mean by "case" and what do you mean by "sensory"? Give us 3000
words if you need to.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 3 Feb 2012, at 05:03, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
>
> Hi, I reached my allowed message number yesterday, so couldn't respnd to this
> topic. The audio case would mark the sensory experience, which I guess would
> make it a sensory case.
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
4.5. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 4:37 am ((PST))
What does that mean, Nicole, will it only be used on nouns of feeling where an
agent experiences the feeling? Eg "I feel sad" --> sad.AUDIO feel.1psg?
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
3 Feb 2012, × 05:03, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
ÎÁÐÉÓÁÌ(Á):
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
>
> Hi, I reached my allowed message number yesterday, so couldn't respnd to this
> topic. The audio case would mark the sensory experience, which I guess would
> make it a sensory case.
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
4.6. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 5:44 am ((PST))
--- On Fri, 2/3/12, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Still not getting it...
Me too -- I have to admit being just as perplexed now as before. We seem
to be getting nowhere except on a tour of oddly named concepts!
> Are we talking evidentials here? Because an "audio case" as
> I'm imagining it, could only be the subject of the verbs
> "hear" and "listen" and as an indirect object of "speak" or
> "shout". Which would rather be a waste of time.
Hardly a waste of time! Some languages / cultures absolutely require such
fiddly cases. Stands to reason that if I have a language that requires
different cases (and even verbal conjugation) for sitting on a chair or
on the ground, it should also have different cases for shouting or
hearing shouts or listening to a harangue. Perhaps even an entirely
different set of roots for a "shout" heard and a "shout" paid attention
to and listened to.
> What do you mean by "case" and what do you mean by
> "sensory"? Give us 3000 words if you need to.
Hear hear!
Padraic
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
> On 3 Feb 2012, at 05:03, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Nicole Andrews
> >
> > Pen name Mellissa Green
> > Budding novelist
> >
> > Hi, I reached my allowed message number yesterday, so
> couldn't respnd to this topic. The audio case would mark the
> sensory experience, which I guess would make it a sensory
> case.
> > Nicole Andrews
> >
> > Pen name Mellissa Green
> > Budding novelist
>
Messages in this topic (36)
________________________________________________________________________
4.7. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Tristan" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 6:08 am ((PST))
> > Hi, I reached my allowed message number yesterday, so couldn't respnd
> > to this topic. The audio case would mark the sensory experience,
> > which I guess would make it a sensory case.
> What does that mean, Nicole, will it only be used on nouns of feeling
> where an agent experiences the feeling? Eg "I feel sad" --> sad.AUDIO
> feel.1psg?
not to add my voice to the fray, but when nicole first asked about an
audio case, i imagined something like this (albeit, strictly sound):
I.SUB piano.AUD â I hear a piano
I.SUB moon.AUD â I see a moon
I.SUB eyes.INSTR piano.AUD â I see a piano
I.SUB skin.INSTR moon.AUD â I feel moonbeams on my skin
and maybe a few verbal sentences that have a slightly different meaning
given an audio case...
I.SUB enjoy music.OBJ I enjoy music
I.SUB enjoy music.AUD I enjoy this music (that I'm hearing)
and were i calling it audio, it could be limited to sound when used with
a verb, or without a verb, or with certain words... that said, i'm still
very interested in how nicole envisions an audio case.
maybe i imaniged it this way because my primary language uses cases like
this, though i didn't create an audio case explicitly. case is lexical.
or really, role is lexical.
(unless I have a case for fire and kindling.)
torpo nalmpu teke jumki
fire-she kindling(location-I lunch)
she devoured my lunch
enjoy,
tristan
--
All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Messages in this topic (36)
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5a. a tale of two vowels
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:21 pm ((PST))
i've got a question about the likelihood of a particular long-vowel shift
that i made up, that is supposed to take the extremely simple vowel system
of my proto-proto-language (hereafter PPL) to the more recent
proto-language (PL) of a conlang (whom are we kidding, *the* conlang) i am
toiling away with.
PPL's vowels:
front back
high i: i u: u
low æ: æ É: É
PL's vowels:
front back
high i: i u: u
mid e:
low æ: æ É
basically what i'm trying to implement is a two-step chain shift of *æ: >
*e: ([e:] or [É:] ... any old E) and subsequently *É: > *æ: (or maybe >
*a:) to replace it.
i'm not really asking if this shift itself is possible (i know back
short-A's often have fronter long-A counterparts; cf. arabic, hungarian,
dutch) but i want to know how reasonable or naturalesque you find the PL
setup with *three *long vowels bunched up in front and only *one*, /u:/
(maybe in some kind of free variation with /o:/), in the back. all
thoughts, particularly those including nat-(and, what the hell, con-)lang
precedents, are invited.
wesaþ hÄle
matt
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: a tale of two vowels
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:44 am ((PST))
You could introduce a phonemic split, e.g. if /ÉË/ > /aË/ > /æË/ is the
general development, you could say that /ÉË/ > /ÉË/ in certain
environments, maybe before velars and nasals (or whatever you chooseâ¦).
Paradigmatic pressure and loan words could then have /ÉË/ be introduced to
other environments making the split phonemic.
Dan
On Feb 3, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
> i've got a question about the likelihood of a particular long-vowel shift
> that i made up, that is supposed to take the extremely simple vowel system
> of my proto-proto-language (hereafter PPL) to the more recent
> proto-language (PL) of a conlang (whom are we kidding, *the* conlang) i am
> toiling away with.
>
> PPL's vowels:
>
> front back
> high i: i u: u
>
> low æ: æ É: É
>
>
> PL's vowels:
>
>
> front back
> high i: i u: u
> mid e:
>
> low æ: æ É
>
>
> basically what i'm trying to implement is a two-step chain shift of *æ: >
> *e: ([e:] or [É:] ... any old E) and subsequently *É: > *æ: (or maybe >
> *a:) to replace it.
>
>
> i'm not really asking if this shift itself is possible (i know back
> short-A's often have fronter long-A counterparts; cf. arabic, hungarian,
> dutch) but i want to know how reasonable or naturalesque you find the PL
> setup with *three *long vowels bunched up in front and only *one*, /u:/
> (maybe in some kind of free variation with /o:/), in the back. all
> thoughts, particularly those including nat-(and, what the hell, con-)lang
> precedents, are invited.
>
>
> wesaþ hÄle
>
> matt
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: a tale of two vowels
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2012 3:04 am ((PST))
On 3 Feb 2012, at 10:44, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> You could introduce a phonemic split, e.g. if /ÉË/ > /aË/ > /æË/ is the
> general development, you could say that /ÉË/ > /ÉË/ in certain
> environments, maybe before velars and nasals (or whatever you chooseâ¦).
Sounds familiar.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:19 pm ((PST))
[ÉÊxÉn kiÉna nÉvrima nÌ©ÊÉki]
euch-on kiena nevrim -a n'rseki!
you -DAT day-ABS groundhog-GEN pleasant!
"Happy Groundhog Day" in Lindiga.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:32 pm ((PST))
Hm. No "earth-mound pigs" in the Eastlands. They are apparently native to
Breasal only -- you'd have to travel into the far away Uttermost West and
then, if you can find one in these turbulent days, find a Carthaginian
ship to take you across the Western Ocean. If there were, I'm sure the
Daine of Westmarche would say "nnmang", roughly "yum!" Particularly when
skewered and roasted as kebab. In Auntimoany, critters like groundhog are
what their quickfood "hot hound sausages" are made of. Well, mostly made
of, anyway. If Groundhog Day were an Auntimoanian holiday, they'd wish you
a "gode merrey yardsouwe daye!"
If Groundhog Day were a Teleranian holiday, you might try Dharma Master's
Thirty-Three Hour Earthmoundpig Barbecue Fried Dumplings. Mm, lots of good
fall-off-the-bone goodness there! Dip it in Haans's No. XXVIIIJ kejap and
experience a wee bit of heaven right here on Gea! Hesuçaçályas osman! (You
eat good, when you don't know the person, or hesuçaçályas tû, if you do.)
Padraic
--- On Thu, 2/2/12, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Herman Miller <[email protected]>
> Subject: [CONLANG] Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, February 2, 2012, 8:19 PM
> [ÉÊxÉn kiÉna nÉvrima nÌ©ÊÉki]
> euch-on
> kiena nevrim -a n'rseki!
> you -DAT day-ABS groundhog-GEN pleasant!
>
> "Happy Groundhog Day" in Lindiga.
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Euchon Kiena Nevrima n'rseki!
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:14 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 20:19:23 -0500, Herman Miller <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[ÉÊxÉn kiÉna nÉvrima nÌ©ÊÉki]
>euch-on kiena nevrim -a n'rseki!
>you -DAT day-ABS groundhog-GEN pleasant!
>
>"Happy Groundhog Day" in Lindiga.
There are no groundhogs (Marmota monax) in Sefdaania, but there are plenty
of other marmots. In this case, the Bobak marmot (Marmota
bobak), 'myóndes'. So,
mééqa myondáámram: an auspicious 'groundhog' day.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Wh-question syntax idea
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:29 pm ((PST))
cía 'who'
and cía-/ce- 'who, what'
Old Irish has both:
cía 'who'
and cía-/ce- 'who, what'
The latter is unstressed an forces the verb to have its so-called conjunct or
prototonic form.
As an example:
cía ad-chí 'who sees?' (stressed form with a verb that is actually relative in
form, the non-relative would
be: ad-cí; so this means 'who is it who sees?')
cía-/ce-accai ? 'who sees?' or 'what does he see?'
(here the verb is -accai)
The unstressed form is usually used in a few common phrases (and often with
nouns): ce méit 'what amount, how much', ce chruth 'what form, how', ce hé 'who
is he?'
You'll note that the unstressed form is both personal 'who' and impersonal
'what' - there is also a stressed form 'cid' which means 'what' - this has the
same syntax as the stressed 'cía'.
Elliott
________________________________
From: Nico Baier <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:22 AM
Subject: Wh-question syntax idea
So I had an idea for wh-questions the other day, for an (mostly) isolating verb
final language. There would two sets of wh-words, one free standing set that
would occur in situ to an appropriate position in the clause, or perhaps be
fronted (but this would be the same construction as non-wh fronting, probably
related to focus). The second of wh-words would be proclitics that obligatorily
get attached to the verb . So the two patterns would be (where the highest
bracketing is the clause):
Free standing: [ ... wh ... V ] ~ [ wh+foc ... V ]
Bound: [ ... [VP wh=V ] ]
The clitics would be phonologically reduced forms of the free standing words.
These patterns would be interchangeable in matrix clauses, but in embedded
questions only the bound pattern would be used.
I know of at least one language (Pawnee) that has incorporated / loosely bound
wh-words, but I don't know if there are any others that do so. I'm also not
aware
of any languages off the top of my head that show an alternation between bound
wh-words and free standing wh-words. Does anyone know of any that have such
an alternation or other langs that have bound wh-words?
Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. New language universal!
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:02 pm ((PST))
In the January 2012 issue of Linguistic Inquiry there's an interesting
(free!) paper titled "Having 'Need' and Needing 'Have'" by Stephanie
Harves and Richard S. Kayne.
Their claim:
If you have a transitive verb for "need", you also have a transitive
verb for "have".
They divide the world's languages into 1) those with and those without a
transitive verb for "need" and 2) those with and those without a
transitive verb for "have". It turns out that there are languages who
have a transitive verb for "have" that lack a transitive verb for
"need", but not the other way around.
The paper is short and not very hard to read:
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/LING_a_00076
t.
Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: New language universal!
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:15 pm ((PST))
Hooray! I have six or seven languages that break an iron-clad linguistic
universal!
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Feb 2, 2012, at 11:02 PM, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> In the January 2012 issue of Linguistic Inquiry there's an interesting
> (free!) paper titled "Having 'Need' and Needing 'Have'" by Stephanie Harves
> and Richard S. Kayne.
>
> Their claim:
>
> If you have a transitive verb for "need", you also have a transitive verb for
> "have".
>
> They divide the world's languages into 1) those with and those without a
> transitive verb for "need" and 2) those with and those without a transitive
> verb for "have". It turns out that there are languages who have a transitive
> verb for "have" that lack a transitive verb for "need", but not the other way
> around.
>
> The paper is short and not very hard to read:
>
> http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/LING_a_00076
>
>
> t.
Messages in this topic (2)
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