There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Case Creation
From: Padraic Brown
1.2. Re: Case Creation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
From: Padraic Brown
2b. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
From: Daniel Bowman
2c. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
From: Sam Stutter
2d. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
From: Daniel Bowman
2e. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
From: Daniel Bowman
3a. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Roman Rausch
3b. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3c. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Wm Annis
3d. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Matthew Boutilier
3e. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Wm Annis
3f. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Brian
3g. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: J. Snow
3h. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
From: Padraic Brown
4a. Re: Number Creation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
5a. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
From: John Erickson
5b. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
From: John Erickson
5c. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudog lyphs
From: Sam Stutter
5d. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudog lyphs
From: Matthew Turnbull
5e. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
From: John Erickson
5f. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
From: A. Mendes
5g. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
From: A. Mendes
6a. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part VI: Negation and Polar Questions
From: Eugene Oh
7a. Re: Gnomic Aspect
From: Herman Miller
Messages
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1.1. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:25 am ((PST))
--- On Fri, 2/3/12, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> As a final note (and to hell with the consequences: I'm just
> going to say it): Holly Lisle's book is not a good
> introduction to conlanging. It has its uses; that is not one
> of them.
No worries!, but while I agree with you, I think your comment may be a bit
misdirected. No one claims that her book is any kind of "introduction to
conlanging" (let alone a good one).
The stated goal is simply to offer an easy method for *writers* of fiction
to enhance their works with fictional languages. Doesn't sound much like
conlanging to me! I've recommended her book several times, but only in the
context of banging out languages as a fictional element within a story,
and not to anyone who already conlangs. Writers who don't understand
language or linguistics and who don't already make languages but who
recognize that language adds depth to the culture in a story can benefit
from her method. Same goes for her worldbuilding and conculture books.
> David Peterson
Padraic
Messages in this topic (51)
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1.2. Re: Case Creation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 7:22 am ((PST))
Here, here. I totally agree.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Padraic Brown" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Case Creation
> --- On Fri, 2/3/12, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> As a final note (and to hell with the consequences: I'm just
>> going to say it): Holly Lisle's book is not a good
>> introduction to conlanging. It has its uses; that is not one
>> of them.
>
> No worries!, but while I agree with you, I think your comment may be a bit
> misdirected. No one claims that her book is any kind of "introduction to
> conlanging" (let alone a good one).
>
> The stated goal is simply to offer an easy method for *writers* of fiction
> to enhance their works with fictional languages. Doesn't sound much like
> conlanging to me! I've recommended her book several times, but only in the
> context of banging out languages as a fictional element within a story,
> and not to anyone who already conlangs. Writers who don't understand
> language or linguistics and who don't already make languages but who
> recognize that language adds depth to the culture in a story can benefit
> from her method. Same goes for her worldbuilding and conculture books.
>
>> David Peterson
>
> Padraic
Messages in this topic (51)
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2a. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:34 am ((PST))
--- On Sun, 2/5/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Are you the guys portrayed in the Citibank commercial?
>
> Haha, definitely not. Everyone assumes that we got the
> idea from the commercial(s) featuring this sort of stunt,
Actually, my first assumption was that the ad agency got the idea from
you!
> It is really quite simple in principle. Balloons are
> $20-75 (depends on
> size and where you buy them), helium is around $80, the SPOT
> tracker can be
> had for around $150, you can program a Canon camera to take
> a photo every X
> seconds (10 secs, in this case), we got the styrofoam cooler
> at walmart and
> attached a few hand warmers to it, and I wasted dozens of
> hours in
> programming a flight trajectory model that turned out to be
> completely wrong :P
Given that they were advertising all the weird and wonderful things you
can do with their credit card reward points, I have to say that a grand
total of $400 would probably wipe out all the points most people would
have in their account, if they could ever accumulate that many! You'd
need somewhere between $40 and $80k in credit card debt... ouch!
> The amazing thing is that in the USA, this sort of thing is
> perfectly legal. I know people have done it in Poland and the UK
> too.
The way things are going, be on the watch for black-booted thugs heading
your way! I can easily see how some folks in Washington would view this
variously as "espionage", or "terrorism" depending.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:42 am ((PST))
>
>
> The way things are going, be on the watch for black-booted thugs heading
> your way! I can easily see how some folks in Washington would view this
> variously as "espionage", or "terrorism" depending.
>
That's why we do these things in New Mexico rather than, say,
Massachusetts. Plus the chances of the instrument package landing on
someone's car is much less in New Mexico.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:19 am ((PST))
The chaps on "James May's Man Lab" did something similar, but were using it to
perform a "space burial" of someone's dead cat's ashes :) Did you use hydrogen
or helium?
On 8 Feb 2012, at 14:42, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>>
>>
>> The way things are going, be on the watch for black-booted thugs heading
>> your way! I can easily see how some folks in Washington would view this
>> variously as "espionage", or "terrorism" depending.
>>
>
> That's why we do these things in New Mexico rather than, say,
> Massachusetts. Plus the chances of the instrument package landing on
> someone's car is much less in New Mexico.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:23 am ((PST))
We used helium for several reasons. First, hydrogen tanks are a bit harder
to come by (they have to be pre ordered) and are only $15 or so cheaper.
Since we were on a tight time frame due to my lack of vacation days, we
chose to go with helium for convenience. Plus, we used my mom's hay shed
to inflate the balloon, and she was assured multiple times that this
balloon posed no hazard to anything. Having a hindenberg incident in the
hay shed would not have made anyone's day :-)
2012/2/8 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>
> The chaps on "James May's Man Lab" did something similar, but were using
> it to perform a "space burial" of someone's dead cat's ashes :) Did you use
> hydrogen or helium?
>
> On 8 Feb 2012, at 14:42, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >> The way things are going, be on the watch for black-booted thugs heading
> >> your way! I can easily see how some folks in Washington would view this
> >> variously as "espionage", or "terrorism" depending.
> >>
> >
> > That's why we do these things in New Mexico rather than, say,
> > Massachusetts. Plus the chances of the instrument package landing on
> > someone's car is much less in New Mexico.
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: Into the furious blue yonder
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:21 am ((PST))
In any case, when launching in New Mexico, keep in mind:
"And, as anyone who travels in Socorro County knows, once in a Magdalena
area, dungeon phone use is wily during best."
Take home message: Dungeon phones get pretty wily depending where you are!
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:57 am ((PST))
> How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in your conlangs?
In Talmit, predicative states receive the postposition _nójo_, while
_ninójo_ expresses the permanentness of the state:
Sulgaxwáta-jar kawá-nójo 'Plum blossoms are red'
Sulgaxwáta-jar kawá-ninójo 'Plum blossoms are [always] red'
Imagine it like English having a second preposition 'in' for permanent
locations and saying 'they are in red' (not necessarily gnomic), 'they are
in-PERM red' (gnomic).
For verbs, the dictionary form is already habitual/gnomic, but you can make
a verb iterative by reduplication and convert it into a state in order to
focus on the gnomicity:
Háwas-jar kínzarun 'Dogs bite'
Háwas-jar kixinzarendé-ninójo 'It's in the nature of dogs to bite', lit.
'Dogs are in [a] permanent-state [of] iterative-biting'
Hope this makes sense.
Messages in this topic (26)
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3b. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:04 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:58:22 +0000 Brian wrote:
> How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in your conlangs?
Old Albic uses the aorist, a tense/aspect form whose general meaning
is perfective and narrative. An example:
Atha Êm cvanthal.
AOR-ESTAR-IMP God-OBJ all-LOC
'God is in everything.'
AFAIK, Ancient Greek does the same.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (26)
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3c. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:59 am ((PST))
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> AFAIK, Ancient Greek does the same.
It does, and Homeric Greek adds a little twist, where it often uses
the postpositive conjunction Ïε (/te/, cognate with L. -que, Skt -ca,
meaning "and") in such statements. In this use it is called "Epic Ïε"
with the joke, "Epic Ïε is the Ïε that means nothing at all."
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org ⢠www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (26)
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3d. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:17 am ((PST))
> It does, and Homeric Greek adds a little twist, where it often uses
> the postpositive conjunction Ïε (/te/, cognate with L. -que, Skt -ca,
> meaning "and") in such statements. In this use it is called "Epic Ïε"
> with the joke, "Epic Ïε is the Ïε that means nothing at all."
>
whoa. just a single Ïε, in the aorist sentence? could you possibly proffer
an example?
matt
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Wm Annis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > AFAIK, Ancient Greek does the same.
>
> It does, and Homeric Greek adds a little twist, where it often uses
> the postpositive conjunction Ïε (/te/, cognate with L. -que, Skt -ca,
> meaning "and") in such statements. In this use it is called "Epic Ïε"
> with the joke, "Epic Ïε is the Ïε that means nothing at all."
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org ⢠www.scholiastae.org
>
Messages in this topic (26)
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3e. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:33 am ((PST))
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Matthew Boutilier
<[email protected]> wrote:
> whoa. just a single Ïε, in the aorist sentence? could you possibly proffer
> an example?
Sure. Iliad A.218. Achilles is having a snit and is about to
kill Agamemnon. Athena appears, grabs him by the hair, and
convinces him not to do this. He finally says,
á½
Ï ÎºÎµ θεοá¿Ï á¼ÏιÏείθηÏαι, μάλα Ïâ
á¼ÎºÎ»Ï
ον αá½ÏοÏ
.
REL-NOM.SG PTCL god-DAT.PL obey-PRES.SBJV.3sg,
very TE listen-AOR.3sg this-GEN.PL
"Whoever obeys the gods, him they listen to especially."
If you're only used to later Greek, κε(ν) = á¼Î½.
--
wm
Messages in this topic (26)
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3f. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 11:01 am ((PST))
It does make sense and I like the distinction you use!
------Original Message------
From: Roman Rausch
Sender: Conlang
To: Conlang
ReplyTo: Conlang
Subject: Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Sent: Feb 8, 2012 08:57
> How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in your conlangs?
In Talmit, predicative states receive the postposition _nójo_, while
_ninójo_ expresses the permanentness of the state:
Sulgaxwáta-jar kawá-nójo 'Plum blossoms are red'
Sulgaxwáta-jar kawá-ninójo 'Plum blossoms are [always] red'
Imagine it like English having a second preposition 'in' for permanent
locations and saying 'they are in red' (not necessarily gnomic), 'they are
in-PERM red' (gnomic).
For verbs, the dictionary form is already habitual/gnomic, but you can make
a verb iterative by reduplication and convert it into a state in order to
focus on the gnomicity:
Háwas-jar kínzarun 'Dogs bite'
Háwas-jar kixinzarendé-ninójo 'It's in the nature of dogs to bite', lit.
'Dogs are in [a] permanent-state [of] iterative-biting'
Hope this makes sense.
Messages in this topic (26)
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3g. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 2:56 pm ((PST))
I handle the gnomic by placing the particle -jo- in front of a verb.
Demus jo morden.
People-NOM GNOM die.
Junus junos jo ren.
Boys-NOM boys-ACC GNOM be
Boys are boys. (Boys will be boys)
In Sironu, aspect particles can be added freely, giving more depth in the
meaning of
a sentence
Demus pova öx jo morden.
People-NOM (perfect progressive) (durative) GNOM die
People have always been dying.
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:58:22 +0000, Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
>How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in your conlangs?
>
>In Khevreþy I use an original case (Restemative) for the subject of the verb.
>
> Manhulþu-k baru-ka-tt.
>Warrior-REST fight-IMPRF
>Warriors fight.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>Sender: Constructed Languages List <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:13:06
>To: <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: No Songs To Sing
>
>Unfortunately, though I'm 20, my inner 12-year-old never gave up his job.
>Sadly,
crude jokes like this are usually the first things I do with a conlang... Then
I get
down the REAL business...
>
>And thanks for the gnomic aspect. I'll look into it :)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Garth Wallace
>Sent: 08/02/2012, 8:32 am
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: No Songs To Sing
>
>
>On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Ben Scerri <[email protected]> wrote:
>> -ar (Eternal Case (actually, if anyone could give me the actual term for a
>> case that represents that we have been doing something since the beginning
>> of time, that would be great. Like Habitual, but with a far longer reach,
>> and one that basically says EVERYONE does this at some point)
>
>That's not a case by the usual definition. Sounds like gnomic aspect.
>
>> On the wave pattern, here is a very crude joke:
>>
>> Xho-gdak Rkózu Ger Nòk = The one-handed man counts to 6.
>>
>> I'll leave you guys to figure out why (shouldn't take long) *shakes head at
>> self*
>
>My inner 12-year-old got it right away.
Messages in this topic (26)
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3h. Re: Gnomic Aspect (was: Re: No Songs To Sing)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 3:00 pm ((PST))
--- On Wed, 2/8/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:58:22 +0000 Brian wrote:
>
> > How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in
> > your conlangs?
>
> Old Albic uses the aorist, a tense/aspect form whose general
> meaning is perfective and narrative. An example:
>
> Atha Êm cvanthal.
> AOR-ESTAR-IMP God-OBJ all-LOC
> 'God is in everything.'
In Talarian, the aorist is not frequently met with. Like O.A., the Talarian
aorist is perfective, but in contrast it has no connotation of tense. A
gnomic concept, such as your example, could not be understood in the
aorist aspect, but would require something broader. The closest choice
among the aspects would be the habitual, but Talarian views this as a
sort of "on again off again" aspect. In other words, just because you do
something habitually doesn't mean you're doing it continuously or
universally.
The solution is to shift these kinds of ideas over to the Stative
conjugation, nonresultive form.
So, "hôssa-he tâlcomi iÅ¡atla, ihesos".
BE.stat.3s-conj. ALL-WHICH.loc.s THAT.IS-ONE.nom.s THAT.IS-GOOD.nom.s
Bes in all that is One, that is Good.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (26)
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4a. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 7:03 am ((PST))
Thanks.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth Wallace" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Number Creation
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yemorans hands are differently-shaped. The four races are: square,
>> rectangle, triangle, circle, and combo, meaning that both parents don't
>> have the the same0shaped hands. What's the difference between cardinal
>> and ordinal numbers, I forgot.
>
> Cardinal numbers are for counting: one, two, three...
>
> Ordinal numbers are for ordering: first, second, third...
Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:36 am ((PST))
Hm, my message seems to have disappeared into the void. Let's try this
again.
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:06:55 +1300, A. Mendes
<[email protected]> wrote:
>http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/name-that-glyph-round-
seven/
>
>We're back into it guys. Computer problems were followed by moving house.
>But now all is operational and settled. Accumulative examples with be up
>next week. :-)
>
>Please take part in Name That Glyph | Round Eight.
I like how "woo" and "race" are the same glyph. Seems appropriate.
A4 wrap
B1 unbalanced
C1 tardis (you took "dalek" so why not?)
C2 printing press
C3 trophy, prize
D1 power
D3 balance, balanced
H1 drip
H3 roller, cylinder
Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:40 am ((PST))
Hm, my messages keep have disappearing into the void. Let's try this again.
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:06:55 +1300, A. Mendes <[email protected]>
wrote:
>http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/name-that-glyph-round-seven/
>
>We're back into it guys. Computer problems were followed by moving house.
>But now all is operational and settled. Accumulative examples with be up
>next week. :-)
>
>Please take part in Name That Glyph | Round Eight.
I like how "woo" and "race" are the same glyph. Seems appropriate.
A4 wrap
B1 unbalanced
C1 tardis (you took "dalek" so why not?)
C2 printing press
C3 trophy, prize
D1 power
D3 balance, balanced
H1 drip
H3 roller, cylinder
Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudog lyphs
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 8:44 am ((PST))
I'm getting them fine.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 8 Feb 2012, at 16:40, John Erickson wrote:
> Hm, my messages keep have disappearing into the void. Let's try this again.
>
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:06:55 +1300, A. Mendes <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/name-that-glyph-round-seven/
>>
>> We're back into it guys. Computer problems were followed by moving house.
>> But now all is operational and settled. Accumulative examples with be up
>> next week. :-)
>>
>> Please take part in Name That Glyph | Round Eight.
>
> I like how "woo" and "race" are the same glyph. Seems appropriate.
>
> A4 wrap
> B1 unbalanced
> C1 tardis (you took "dalek" so why not?)
> C2 printing press
> C3 trophy, prize
> D1 power
> D3 balance, balanced
> H1 drip
> H3 roller, cylinder
Messages in this topic (10)
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5d. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudog lyphs
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 10:36 am ((PST))
B1 A bag, backpack
C1 Dilemma, fork
C2 Dignity, Grace
C3 Altar, Low table
D2 Subservience, Awe
E4 Defeat, Loss
Messages in this topic (10)
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5e. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 2:29 pm ((PST))
Oh there they are. Sorry for the spam.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5f. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "A. Mendes" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 5:30 pm ((PST))
« John Erickson wrote: I like how "woo" and "race" are the same glyph.
Seems appropriate. »
Same... Also if you remove that small stroke in the upper left, it becomes
the glyph for "girl"
On Feb 8, 2012 6:22 PM, "John Erickson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I like how "woo" and "race" are the same glyph. Seems appropriate.
>
> For this week:
>
> A4 wrap
> C1 Tardis (well, you took "dalek," so why not?)
> C2 printing press
> C3 trophy, award
> D1 power
> D3 cactus
> E2 push
> H1 drip
> H3 roller, cylinder
> I1 stop
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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5g. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Seven « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "A. Mendes" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 5:34 pm ((PST))
Hi Alex. Yes, sorry, I completely missed them. I'm keeping a master
spreadsheet so at the end of all 40 rounds, there will be some major
housekeeping to be done.
Your suggestions have been recorded. Thank you for helping.
On Feb 9, 2012 1:19 AM, "Alex Fink" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:06:55 +1300, A. Mendes <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/name-that-glyph-round-seven/
>
> There were three sets of suggestions on your blog post for Round Six (mine
> included) that it doesn't look like you noticed.
>
> (Then again, if you do take them all, that'll be quite a bit of congestion
> on the t- words. Feel free to move mine wholesale to a different round to
> even things out...)
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part VI: Negation and Polar Questions
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 4:04 pm ((PST))
Like the multiple types of negatives a lot. The topic is one of my favourites
to play around with, for exactly the multiple shades of negativity there are
that you mention.
Arithide has 3 varieties of negation, though less clearly marked than Moten.
All three varieties are marked by the descendants of the negative particle in
Old Arithide, "ava".
1) Narrow negation
The negation attaches itself purely to the end of the inflected verb (-va) and
negates only that inflected verb. The action implied by the verb has not
happened. Eg, vaksa "she has gone" > vaksava "she has not gone".
2) Broad negation
The negation attaches itself to the head of the stem of the verb (av-, af-,
au-), effectively becoming a new verb that is semantically opposite to the
original. The absence/non-occurrence of the action implied by the verb is the
current state. Eg, vaksa > avvaksa "she has taken the course of not-going".
This semantic negation is also applicable to adjectives and adverbs, but means,
like English "not/non-" and Moten "mu", simply "alternative to": mgrai "far" >
aumgrai "non-far".
3) Negative imperatives
Negative imperatives can be expressed via tacking the imperative ending onto
the semantically negated verb, eg vagl "go!" > avvagl "don't go!".
Alternatively a periphrasis can be employed, namely "mlra + imperfective", eg
mlra vagln, "don't go!"
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Feb 2012, at 12:13, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hi everyone!
>
> I've just updated my blog with a new post about Moten grammar. This time, I
> tackle two syntactic rather than morphological topics (well, at least in
> Moten they are handled by syntax :) ): negation and polar questions.
>
> The post itself is available at the following link:
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/2012/02/moten-part-vi-negation-and-polar.html(and
> the list of posts devoted to Moten is available on this static page:
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/p/moten-language.html).
>
> Writing this post made me realise that Moten is even weirder than I
> originally thought (it even prompted me to write on Twitter 10 days ago
> that it made me discover new "levels of weird" in the language). Although
> I'd rather you read the post itself to get the full info, I can at least
> mention here why it makes me think that way :) .
>
> Basically, Moten has two productive ways of forming negations: the
> "alternative" particle _mu_, and the "logical negation" particle _us_.
>
> _Mu_ is used like "not" in "not blue", i.e. to indicate an alternative
> (semantically speaking, "not blue" is similar to "other than blue"). So for
> instance _mu sezgo_ means "not fast", as in "other than fast" (i.e. it
> doesn't automatically mean "slow"). The peculiar part about _mu_ is that
> its "other than" meaning extends even when it's used on the verb, and has a
> slightly different meaning depending on whether it's used on the verb
> itself or its auxiliary (as you might remember, nearly all conjugations in
> Moten are periphrastic). This means that translating it simply as "not" is
> not always the right thing to do! I'll let you check the blog post itself
> for examples.
>
> I call _us_ the "logical negation", because its basically falsifies the
> statement it's in. It's equivalent to starting a sentence with "it's false
> that...". Its main peculiarity is that its scope isn't the word it
> completes, or even the clause it's in. Its scope is a full *statement*,
> i.e. an independent clause, possibly accompanied with subclauses (in
> general, it's equal to say that its scope is a full sentence, except when
> two independent clauses are coordinated or juxtaposed). This means, for
> instance, that if _us_ is in a subclause, it doesn't negate that subclause
> itself. Rather, it negates the *statement* the subclause is part of (and is
> thus normally translated by negating the main clause, even though it's
> nowhere near it!). See the post for more details.
>
> Maybe the weirdest part is the fact that _mu_ is actually the more commonly
> used negation, and _us_ the lesser used one. In particular, _us_ cannot be
> used in questions and in imperative sentences, and due to its weird scope
> rules it cannot be used to negate subclauses either.
>
> Actually no, the really weirdest part of it all is the behaviour of
> multiple negations. You'll really need to read the post I made though, as
> there is just too much to say about this subject for this post. But to sum
> it up: multiple _mu_ particles usually ignore each other unless they don't
> (you *really* need to read the post to get it!), _mu_ and _us_ in the same
> clause often cancel each other, forming a strengthened affirmation, but not
> always, and multiple _us_ particles are equivalent to having a single _us_
> in the sentence, i.e. they neither cancel nor strengthen each other. And
> that's without including the negative indefinite pronouns in the mix! (I do
> explain how they interact with the other negations in the post)
>
> Compared to all that craziness, describing how to form yes-no questions
> (through a verb-not-verb construction) and how to answer them is a walk in
> the park, and a nice way to conclude the post.
>
> So I hope I've woken your appetite, and that you will head to my blog to
> read this new post about Moten grammar :) . As usual, comments are more
> than welcome. I'm especially interested to know about your conlangs'
> negation schemes, and I am curious to know whether the weird scoping rules
> of _us_ have an ANADEW or ACADEW.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. Re: Gnomic Aspect
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 7:49 pm ((PST))
On 2/7/2012 8:58 PM, Brian wrote:
> How do you all handle the Gnomic Aspect (if at all) in your conlangs?
I'll try this again. The reply address was set to reply directly to you
for some reason....
In Tirelat I use a nonpast perfective. The example I've given is "the
sun shines", which I translated as "jÄtuleÅan sy kih". The inferential
nonpast suffix -Åa is the least marked way to express this, but you can
also use the non-past direct-observation suffix -de. At one time I had
what I called an "aorist" tense in Tirelat, which was really more of a
gnomic aspect than anything, but it didn't really fit into the scheme of
Tirelat morphosyntax and I stopped using it.
Messages in this topic (26)
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