There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
From: Eugene Oh
1b. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1c. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
From: Alex Fink
1d. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
From: Padraic Brown
2.1. Re: No Songs To Sing
From: Douglas Koller
3a. Re: Number Creation
From: Douglas Koller
3b. Re: Number Creation
From: MorphemeAddict
4a. Typing help??
From: Roger Mills
4b. Re: Typing help??
From: Patrick Dunn
4c. Re: Typing help??
From: Larry Sulky
5a. Greek verb form question
From: Adnan Majid
5b. Re: Greek verb form question
From: Wm Annis
Messages
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1a. The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:57 pm ((PST))
After much googling and JSTOR-ing, I was unable to find much in the way of
an account of the emergence of the Latin 3rd declension, which I
nonetheless gather is, at least in part, syncretic of a few different
patterns in earlier incarnations of the language.
Does anyone know anything about the evolution of the 3rd declension or can
point me to a reference?
Alternatively -- how can I search the list archives for any posts on the
subject? Currently, when I put in anything into the search box, it treats
it as a string to be exactly matched.
Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:27 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:56:36 +0000 Eugene Oh wrote:
> After much googling and JSTOR-ing, I was unable to find much in the way of
> an account of the emergence of the Latin 3rd declension, which I
> nonetheless gather is, at least in part, syncretic of a few different
> patterns in earlier incarnations of the language.
>
> Does anyone know anything about the evolution of the 3rd declension or can
> point me to a reference?
The Latin 3rd declension consists of two subdeclensions: the
consonantal declension and the i-declension. Both are inherited
from Proto-Indo-European, where they are subtypes of the
athematic declension (which is more archaic than the thematic
declension, which became the o-declension in Latin). The many
irregular nominative singulars in the 3rd declension are due to
various sound changes which wrought havoc with word-final
consonants.
Hope this helps.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:06 am ((PST))
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:27:24 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Hallo conlangers!
>
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:56:36 +0000 Eugene Oh wrote:
>
>> After much googling and JSTOR-ing, I was unable to find much in the way of
>> an account of the emergence of the Latin 3rd declension, which I
>> nonetheless gather is, at least in part, syncretic of a few different
>> patterns in earlier incarnations of the language.
>>
>> Does anyone know anything about the evolution of the 3rd declension or can
>> point me to a reference?
>
>The Latin 3rd declension consists of two subdeclensions: the
>consonantal declension and the i-declension. Both are inherited
>from Proto-Indo-European, where they are subtypes of the
>athematic declension (which is more archaic than the thematic
>declension, which became the o-declension in Latin). The many
>irregular nominative singulars in the 3rd declension are due to
>various sound changes which wrought havoc with word-final
>consonants.
Mhmm, sounds right.
As for a reference, Michael Weiss's _Outline of the Historical and
Comparative Grammar of Latin_ would probably cover this:
http://ohcgl.blogspot.com/
Alex
Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:10 am ((PST))
--- On Sat, 2/11/12, Eugene Oh <[email protected]> wrote:
> After much googling and JSTOR-ing, I
> was unable to find much in the way of
> an account of the emergence of the Latin 3rd declension,
> which I
> nonetheless gather is, at least in part, syncretic of a few
> different patterns in earlier incarnations of the language.
I've always seen it as a bit of a junk drawer -- bits and pieces thrown
together because there's simply no better place to put them. Or rather
because grammarians are too lazy to sort them into proper bins! I don't
know how far back the idea of "five declensions" goes, but I do think it's
clear that the third declension còuld be divided into several rather
smaller ones, notably the -i stems (turris) and the various consonant stems
(rex, reg-; honos, honor-; etc).
> Does anyone know anything about the evolution of the 3rd
> declension or can point me to a reference?
Sadly, no. My grammars are silent on the history of Latin grammar itself.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (4)
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2.1. Re: No Songs To Sing
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:06 pm ((PST))
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:26:39 +1100
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: No Songs To Sing
> To: [email protected]
> > Parallelism works really well for languages high in synonyms. Languages
> > with a sparse lexicon would simply produce a repetition of lines with the
> > same words:
> Not necessarily. All you need to do is give several examples of a SIMILAR
> concept. Therefore, all your language needs is the possibility of metaphor
> or simile, and I can see no reason why any conlang trying to be
> naturalistic could not fit this need.
> Artlangs and the like might have a bit more of a problem, but then, not all
> types of poetry and suited to every type of language.
Too true. While I have Géarthtörs situated in the Sea of Japan, I think
Géarthnuns haiku would suck.
> On 6 February 2012 02:15, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> > --- On Sun, 2/5/12, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > You might also consider parallelism,
> > > a device used in Hebrew poetry. There
> > > are several variations. If you are interested I'd be
> > > glad to tell you of them.
> > > Psalm 37:1-2
> > > Be not vexed over evildoers,
> > > Nor jealous of those who do wrong;
> > > For like grass they quickly wither,
> > > And like green herbs they wilt.
> > Parallelism works really well for languages high in synonyms. Languages
> > with a sparse lexicon would simply produce a repetition of lines with the
> > same words:
> > Be not upset about wrongdoers
> > nor upset about those wrongdoers;
> > like plants they quickly wilt,
> > like plants they wilt.
> > > I will be using parallelism when I attempt some poetry in
> > > Senjecas.
> > > Senjecas is not conducive to rhyme.
Time will tell if Géarthnuns rhymes well. I think it could, but I haven't
really tried my hand at it. Not knowing the terminology for the poetic device
at the time, I was struck by parallelism when I dabbled in some Biblical
translation several years back. I also like the way Chinese å°è¯ (对è
dui4lian2), "couplets" work sometimes. Not necessarily synonyms, but parallel
concepts. Maybe: first line: a color word, a thing in nature, a verb...etc.;
second line: a color word, something else in nature, a verb...etc. (Like: 1)
The green pine tree stands... 2) The teal mountain soars...). I took a shot at
this for my Conlang end-o'-the-year-festival card this past year. It was four
groups of two lines each, that went: nominative and nominative, present
auxiliary; locative noun, locative adj. adverb, verb. As it turned out, the
locative nouns and their attendent adjs. all ended up in the same declension,
adverbs qua adverbs all ended the same way, and the final verbs were all of the
same conjugation in citation form. Oh, and look, the adjs. all rhyme, though
they're in the middle of a line à propos of nothing, so who cares? I hadn't
really planned on all of that going on when I started, but as it was
congealing, I went for it, and only had to coin two new words to smash it all
into the concept. It may not win the Emily Dickenson Prize, card recipients may
have rolled their eyes at the treacle, and it certainly lacks the tightness and
concision of Chinese, but I like the way it turned out. And that, dear friends,
is parallelism, Géarthnuns style :)
Kou
Messages in this topic (28)
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3a. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:01 pm ((PST))
> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 15:37:31 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Number Creation
> To: [email protected]
> --- On Sat, 2/4/12, J. Snow <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In Sironu, I based the numbers
> > 0-10 off of English and built nearly the entire system
> > off of that.
> > zo, on, du, ri, fo, fa, si, sé, et, na, tén.
> > from 10 it goes: ontén, dutén, ritén, fotén, fatén,
> > etc., then 20, 25, 30, 40, 50
> > etc. go tendu, tendu-fa, tenri, tenfo, tenfa...
> > I'm curious to see what other kinds of number systems people
> > come up with.
Géarthnuns is a priori on this one: 1, sír (whence spring the words for "I",
"a/an", and the third person singular pronouns); 2, punge (with the requisite
conlangy dual number in all cases and pronouns); 3, tou (plural, ho-hum); 4,
sebut; 5, palav; 6, rhal; 7, zhöshe (bedazzling us with the extra-conlangier
defective septimal number only in the nominative and accusative cases and
third person pronouns); 8, bés; 9, ngareth; 10, mnö; 100, kashad; 1000, pér.
Combining follows the Chinese method: 11, mnösír; 21, pungemnö sír; 57,
palavmnö zhöshe; 365, toukashad rhalmnö palav; 5248, palavpér pungekashad
sebutmnö bés. The only fly in the ointment is that each power of ten has its
own word, which takes è¬, å, å
, 京, and å to whole new levels :) I
don't remember how far up I went, but certainly plenty to discuss national
deficits and stellar distances with aplomb. I'm afraid if I tried such a system
in anything other than base ten, my head would explode (not a math and numbers
guy).
Kou
Messages in this topic (22)
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3b. Re: Number Creation
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:12 pm ((PST))
I have distinct phonemes for 0..9, 10, 100, 1000 in Sprat. To them I added
a dedicated phoneme "-r" for powers of a million. So 'one + r' is a
million, 'two + r' is a trillion (10^12), 'three + r' is 10^24. I don't
expect a need for higher numbers soon, but they're available if I want
them. Of course, the number 'thousand + r' is the biggest 1-syllable number
("mer") in the language, and it's value is 10^(3*(2^1000)), far larger than
a googol.
stevo
On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Charlie Brickner <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 13:38:13 -0500, J. Snow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm curious to see what other kinds of number systems people come up with.
> >
>
> Senjecas has a vigesimal counting system with an individual name for each
> number from 1 to 20.
>
> I had four criteria for deriving these numbers:
> 1. monosyllabic
> 2. no diphthongs
> 3. cannot end in a stop
> 4. cannot end in a consonant cluster
>
> The numbers for the teens were chosen from the numbers 1 through 10 in the
> various sources and reapplied to the teens.
>
> I derived:
> From PIE: 1, sás (Toch A); 2, dwó; 3, tír; 5, pís (Toch B); 7, séf; 9,
> nún; 15,
> hín (Armenian); 17, yoth (Armenian); 18, uth (Armenian).
> From Proto-Finno-Ugric: 4, nél (Finnish); 16, kúz (Finnish).
> From Proto-Altaic: 10, ón (Turkish); 20, kyúr (Turkish).
> From Etruscan: 6, sá; 11, thú; 12, zál.
> From Proto-Caucasian: 8, bún; 13, swím.
> From Proto-Dravidian: 14, náál; 19, tól.
>
> Because the Ethrans were scientists, there are also numbers for the
> multiples
> of 100 (nám, PAlt., Tungus) up to 100,000,000,000,000. These are derived
> from various words for âmany,â âabundance,â âexcess,â etc. These
> exact
> numbers suffered a semantic shift when the society collapsed and there was
> no more need for these large numbers.
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (22)
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4a. Typing help??
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:29 pm ((PST))
Where the H. do I find the *subscript dot* in the IPA section of the new Times
New Roman font? Or any other font for that matter..............I'm going to
need it in something I'm working on in Open Office.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Typing help??
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:35 pm ((PST))
I have no idea, but if you want to type in IPA easily, this website will
make your day. It did mine:
http://www.i2speak.com/
Works just fine with Open Office.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> Where the H. do I find the *subscript dot* in the IPA section of the new
> Times New Roman font? Or any other font for that matter..............I'm
> going to need it in something I'm working on in Open Office.
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: Typing help??
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:40 pm ((PST))
Roger, also check out the font "Charis SIL" for a free, well-supported
IPA-capable and OpenType-compatible font. ---larry
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> Where the H. do I find the *subscript dot* in the IPA section of the new
> Times New Roman font? Or any other font for that matter..............I'm
> going to need it in something I'm working on in Open Office.
>
--
*Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day I
can hear her breathing. -- Arundhati Roy*
Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Greek verb form question
Posted by: "Adnan Majid" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:36 pm ((PST))
Hi Everyone,
Before starting off, I wanted to thank people in the past who had taken the
time to help me with my linguistic questions. It's been a while since I've
posted last, and I often find myself too swept up in work to respond to
your very helpful comments. Sorry for that.
I'm not too familiar with classical/koine Greek verb forms and became very
curious when coming across the word "agapeta" (plural neuter) in Ephesians
5:1, translated "beloved." How exactly does one use and produce this verb
form? "Agapeta" seems similar to a passive participle of the verb "agapao,"
but the verb charts I'm using would suggest a passive participle like
"agapomena" instead. Can one generalize and make passive participle-like
adjectives with a "-tos/-te/-ton" ending for all other verbs?
Similarly, how does one form "christos" (anointed) from the verb "chrio" (I
anoint)? Is there also a passive participle like "chrimenos" that means the
same thing?
The reason I ask is because I enjoy working on a conlang in which
classical/koine Greek vocabulary is incorporated *en masse* into a
Latin-based system similar to LsF. I find Greek nouns, adjectives, and
prepositions pretty easy to incorporate, but working with Greek verbs has
been quite daunting (although TAKE has been very helpful - thanks Ray). I
was considering whether my Greek-origin verbs could have past participles
similar in nature to Latin past participles that end in -tus/-ta/-tum.
And once again, thank you all for all your insights. I really appreciate it.
Adnan
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Greek verb form question
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:15 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Adnan Majid <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can one generalize and make passive participle-like
> adjectives with a "-tos/-te/-ton" ending for all other verbs?
In addition to the participles, there are two verbal adjective forms
available in Greek, those in -tos/-tÄ/-ton and those in -teos/-teÄ/-teon.
The first set can indicate either something like a perfect passive
participle or possibility (horÄtos "visible"). The second set are only
used to indicate obligation or necessity. Their morphology can be
annoying: you cannot predict which verb stem they will attach to
(though the aorist passive stem is most common).
Neither of these forms really follow a fixed pattern of use. One
would sort of expect to see them more often, but they just aren't
that common. I would go so far as to say that I doubt the -tos
forms were really productive in Classical or Koine Greek. The
-teos forms were more common in certain genres (isteon - "let it
be known, you need to know..." - is a mannerism of academic
genres). On the other hand, I can find eratos "lovely" all over the
place, but not a peep of erateos.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org ⢠www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (2)
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