There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Days of the week
From: Herman Miller
2a. Ogham letter order
From: Alex Fink
2b. Re: Ogham letter order
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3b. OT: Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
From: ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ
3c. Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
From: Adam Walker
4a. OT: Language Learning Survey
From: kechpaja
4b. Re: OT: Language Learning Survey
From: Daniel Burgener
5a. Re: Worldbuilding Question
From: J. Snow
6a. Re: YSL
From: ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ
7. Re: letter order
From: A. da Mek
8a. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
From: Eugene Oh
Messages
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1a. Re: Days of the week
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:23 pm ((PST))
On 2/13/2012 6:01 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Scott Hlad<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> For Asirka, I have been thinking
>> about days of the week. I was thinking of
>> deriving the names from the biblical creation narrative. I'm
>> not sure though
>> how that would fit in with the natural progression of
>> calendar development
>> in the world. Obviously I can choose whatever i want. I'm
>> wondering if any
>> natlangs used this as the basis of the names.
>
> I don't see why the names of days would necessarily impact calendar
> development. I'd only say that using the Biblical account of creation would
> almost categorically impose a seven day week with a built-in week-end. It
> might be interesting if Asirka had a *different* scheme that became
> changed with Christian (or Jewish) influence...
>
> Funny that... I don't seem to have much in the way of Daynames for any
> place in the World. The only note on days I have is "The chiefs of the
> race of archangels are said to be seven in number. According to the Jews,
> they are: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Oriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael.
> The Kristians of Abyssinia and Kemeteia-Misser hold that the seven are:
> Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Suriel, Zadakiel, Sarathiel and Aniel. In the
> Eastlands, the seven archangels are said to rule over a particular day and
> season: Michael (Sunday), Gabriel (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Oriel
> (Wednesday), Sealtiel (Thursday), Jegudiel, (Friday), and Barachiel
> (Saturday)."
>
> I'm sure in Germanic speaking countries the names are similar to the
> old English names for the days and in Rumic and Remic speaking countries
> the names are similar to Latin names.
>
> Padraic
I recently ran across an old old version of Tirelat which has a listing
of days of the week: hrolefel, ziribafel, kyvadefel, diazefel, aimafel,
myrefel, janafel. It turns out that these are just translations of the
Jarda days of the week, since Tirelat originally was planned to take the
place of Jarda as a personal language. I think I might just borrow these
as the Lindiga days of the week (in a suitably mangled form).
Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Ogham letter order
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:07 pm ((PST))
It sprang out at me while looking at the assignment of the basic Ogham letters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham#Alphabet:_the_Beith-Luis-Nin
that the second family
H D T C Q,
made of one through five strokes respectively, look very much like the
initials of (the Proto-Q-Celtic antecedents of) _óen dá trí cethair cóic_
'one two three four five'. This seems like it can hardly be a coincidence.
In particular, that _óen_ starts with no consonant squares with úath not
being used in (nonscholastic?) inscriptions. Four and five should have both
been /k_w/ but it makes sense given the duplication to allot one of them /k/.
Someone must have noticed this before, no?
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Ogham letter order
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:41 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:07:08 -0500 Alex Fink wrote:
> It sprang out at me while looking at the assignment of the basic Ogham
> letters
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham#Alphabet:_the_Beith-Luis-Nin
> that the second family
> H D T C Q,
> made of one through five strokes respectively, look very much like the
> initials of (the Proto-Q-Celtic antecedents of) _óen dá trí cethair cóic_
> 'one two three four five'. This seems like it can hardly be a coincidence.
> In particular, that _óen_ starts with no consonant squares with úath not
> being used in (nonscholastic?) inscriptions. Four and five should have both
> been /k_w/ but it makes sense given the duplication to allot one of them
> /k/.
>
> Someone must have noticed this before, no?
This is a good observation, I think. I have been maintaining
the opinion for quite a while that seemingly arbitrary alphabetic
orders are usually based on some sort of mnemonic verses that are
lost in time. The counting sequence you cite may have been part
of such a mnemonic for the Ogham order.
As for the letter shapes, they are in my opinion just cryptograms
for another script that has not been preserved because it was used
on perishable materials (similar cryptograms exist for Runic and
some other alphabets), but probably was some local offshot of the
Latin alphabet which had been re-ordered according to that lost
mnemonic verse I suspect here.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:16 pm ((PST))
So when would they start showing feralness?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
-----
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. OT: Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
Posted by: "ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:29 am ((PST))
On Tuesday, 14 February, 2012 09:09:27 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> So when would they start showing feralness?
On the first full moon after the winter solstice following their
seventh
birthday. Before that, any possible indication of feralness could also be
attributed to poor upbringing or excessive interaction with idiot savants, but
after that, there's no scientific basis for doubt of true feralness. Although
you may come across some opinions expressing various degress of uncertainty,
you will quickly find that most of that doubt is grounded in a research paper
done by an undergraduate at the University of New South London, which
subsequent study has shown to be mostly the logorrhea of an excessively
inebriated subaquatic pannier weaver.
Regards,
:Peter
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Babbling and Baby Talk
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:12 am ((PST))
Right after they stop showing civilizedness. Or last Thursday.
On 2/13/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:
> So when would they start showing feralness?
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> -----
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. OT: Language Learning Survey
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:57 pm ((PST))
Hello!
As a computer science class project, I'm part of a team putting together a
language learning application, and we're looking for feedback from potential
users. If you could take a few minutes to fill out the linked survey, It would
be very helpful.
https://docs.google.com/a/brown.edu/spreadsheet/embeddedform?formkey=dGdBNU1LOFlsbnNMV0RPUkpRcXluTGc6MQ
Thanks!
-Kelvin
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: OT: Language Learning Survey
Posted by: "Daniel Burgener" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:21 am ((PST))
That was the first time I've taken a survey where my age was in a *-40
category, so thanks for making me feel old... :)
-Daniel
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 12:56 AM, kechpaja <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello!
>
> As a computer science class project, I'm part of a team putting together a
> language learning application, and we're looking for feedback from
> potential users. If you could take a few minutes to fill out the linked
> survey, It would be very helpful.
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/a/brown.edu/spreadsheet/embeddedform?formkey=dGdBNU1LOFlsbnNMV0RPUkpRcXluTGc6MQ
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Kelvin
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Worldbuilding Question
Posted by: "J. Snow" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:58 pm ((PST))
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:51:47 +0100, Nikolay Ivankov
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm not really sure that this is the question to the LCS, even less than
>the previous question by Nicole.
Well, the conworld in question is the birthplace of Sironu, as well as two
sister 'langs
I'm now working on, so it does have some relevancy.
>First of all, what you describe resembles, with small historical
>"oscillations", USA around the war for independence. Slavery, democracy,
>the steam power is nigh, the science is still somewhat Renaissance.
Well, in some ways you're pretty spot on.
The region its history has been dominated by Siru (the Sironu Empire) for well
over
one and a half millenia. Sometime in the past, however, a meteor strike in the
north
causes drastic climate change and widespread chaos. Scientific research, which
once progressed at an unprecedented rate, now virtually goes extinct. Siru
loses
most of its territories, allowing new nations and city-states to develop
without
interference.
One of these nations, Provede gains enough power to take control of a loose
allaince of city-state "tribes", and they eventually must unite in order to
break free
from Provedian rule. (Yes, similar to America's struggle for independence) They
form the new nation of Doimatera.
Time goes on, and a small island named Tekkos, left to its own devices,
discovers
(or maybe rediscovers) steam power, as well as creates techniques for making
steel, and eventually becomes a major industrial and trade center. Siru, after
centuries of barely hanging on, begins to make a comeback and begins the
process
of reclaiming its former territory, becoming an imperialistic entity much like
Rome.
Typing this up, I managed to answer some of my questions. *shrug*
>So what will really resemble Antiquity in your conworld? Is it only about
>sandals and togas, or do you mean something else, like lack of gunpowder?
I'm not sure if I understand this question.
>Furthermore, Greeks were aware of steam engine (in its most simple forms)
>and differential device, and that's the fault of Romans who didn't get the
>point. Greeks were also aware of lens since at least Vth century BC, so
>they could have constructed both telescope and microscope. And, by the way,
>the microscope, as an idea of reversing the telescope, appeared much later,
>because it looks much more practical and fascinating from the beginning to
>know what is far rather than what is right here, but invisibly small.
Okay, true, but though I'm borrowing elements from real history, I don't always
want
to follow it.
>As to democracy, Rome before Caesar was a Republic = Rex Publica = Reign of
>People = Demo+Kratia = Demo-Cracy. The development of the democracy was not
>something path-breaking in ancient times, it is actually the monarchy that
>was developing out of egalitarian societies.
>I'm not sure I've answered Your question, but this has nothing to do with
>conlanging so far. So if You want more answers and questions, write a
>personal message.
Mmmmkay...
>
>On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:15 AM, J. Snow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The conworld I derived my conlang from is a patchwork of elements from our
>> own
>> world. I've mainly been dealing with a set time period in this world, and
>> I've only
>> bothered with a relatively small region, because planning on using it in a
>> story I'm
>> trying to write.
>>
>> -Society in this region is roughly similar to Roman times (in some
>> places), around
>> 500 BC to 100 AD.
>> -The technology is rather advanced for these types of societies; steel is
>> beginning
>> to become mass-produced, and steam powered ships and machinery are
common
>> several of the nations of this region.
>> -Science is in a post Renaissance-like stage; the telescope is a recent
>> invention and
>> microscopes have been around for a century.
>> -Religion is a bit blurred; there is a duothiestic, Christian-like
>> religion that has been
>> around for 1000 years but Romanesque gods are still widely worshipped.
>>
>> My question is, how might these events have developed into what they are
>> "today"? And how might democracy develop in this type of situation?
>>
>> (Sorry if I'm being kind of confusing. I'm tired and probably not thinking
>> clearly.)
>>
Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: YSL
Posted by: "ÐеÑÑ Ð Ð¸Ñ
аÑдовиÑ" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:05 am ((PST))
Here, I think this link will help: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=twin+speak
Regards,
:Peter
On Monday, 13 February, 2012 10:52:24 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> What? I'm confused.
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Hlad" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: YSL
>
> > You may want to do a little research on twinspeak.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> > Sent: February 12, 2012 11:25 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: YSL
> >
> > The twins' history is that there feral. A healing academy doesn't seem
> > like
> > the place for someone to learn a language. But wouldn't Yardish count as
> > a second language? And what's the issue with this critical period
> > theory, and
> > how would effect their language development.
> > Nicole Andrews
> >
> > Pen name Mellissa Green
> > Budding novelist
> > Tweet me
> >
> >
> >
> > @greenNovelist
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patrick Dunn" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: YSL
> >
> >> What is believable in fiction is what is motivated by the characters'
> >> histories, their past actions, and the world you've built before you've
> >> begun writing. if everything is consistent and well-motivated, then
> >> readers will believe anything at all. But if it's not motivated, and
> >> not consistent, then readers will put the book down.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> >>
> >> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>> If I knew the answer, I wouldn't be asking. I don't know what would be
> >>> believable.
> >>>
> >>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>
> >>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>> Budding novelist
> >>> Tweet me
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> @greenNovelist
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Oh" <[email protected]>
> >>> To: <[email protected]>
> >>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:47 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: YSL
> >>>
> >>> Really, all these questions you're asking, you can decide for
> >>>
> >>> yourself -
> >>>
> >>>> and indeed you should, as they are creative decisions affecting the
> >>>> outcome
> >>>> of your artwork. Others can help with more technical things like how
> >>>> numbers tend to develop or what cases are, but a lot of language
> >>>> creation
> >>>> is up to you, particularly the back story of two presumably important
> >>>> figures, which all the more should be your territory as a budding
> >>>> novelist!
> >>>>
> >>>> Eugene
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> On 13 Feb 2012, at 03:15, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> >>>>
> >>>> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Would Yardish be the feral twins second language? Would they learn
> >>>>
> >>>> teir
> >>>>
> >>>>> langugage at a healing academy?
> >>>>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>>>> Budding novelist
> >>>>> Tweet me
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> @greenNovelist
> >
> > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.h
> > tm>
> >
> >> and
> >
> > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref
> > =sr _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (16)
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7. Re: letter order
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:01 am ((PST))
> I have been maintaining
the opinion for quite a while that seemingly arbitrary alphabetic
orders are usually based on some sort of mnemonic verses that are
lost in time.
This is how I "reconstructed" names of my conlangs, Gad¨hish and Qagwish.
Gad¨hish is a Semitic-like language spoken by the descendants of forefather
Gad¨h, who is mentioned (together with his brother Zah.t. and a woman (or a
goddess?) named Qarsha) in the sentence, whose vocalisation I am partially
reconstructing
'aBu GaDHu Wa ZaH.T.u JaKLiMuN S ` P S. QaRSaTa/i.
father Gad¨h and Zah.t., they saw ... (of?) Qarsha.
Qagwish is an Indo-European language spoken by the descendants of forefather
Qagw and his son (or grandson?) Kagw.
In the old Glottalic PIE-like language:
P H2 T ¯ R Q G W
In a dialect after the Grimm's law (but without Verner's law):
F H2 Þ ¯ R K G W
Later were evidently the glyphs for laryngeals (and also the glyph for
marking vowel length) abandoned and the gaps in the alphabetic order filled
with vowels.
Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: The history of the Latin 3rd declension?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:35 am ((PST))
Thanks all, managed to find some decent overviews of this fuzzy topic.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 12 Feb 2012, at 16:31, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:56:36 +0000
> Eugene Oh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know anything about the evolution of the 3rd declension
>> or can point me to a reference?
>
> As others have said, it's a mixture of consonant and -i stems. The
> Romans themselves got them confused because of the shared Gen. and Dat.
> singular and the 'mixed stems'. The result is consonant inflection
> spreading to -i stems (Acc. turrem as well as turrim) and vice versa
> (Gen. pl. dentium replacing dentum). The mixed stems in -t were
> originally -ti stems: mors < *mortis.
Messages in this topic (6)
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