There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: Matthew Turnbull
1b. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: MorphemeAddict
1c. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: Patrick Dunn
1d. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: George Corley
1e. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: MorphemeAddict
1f. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: George Corley
1g. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
1h. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: Sam Stutter
1i. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
From: Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ
2. Іљте Ьлеј: First article available (Fwd: Re: [Dela
From: Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ
3a. Re: "question words"
From: MorphemeAddict
3b. Re: "question words"
From: George Corley
4a. TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
From: Jan Strasser
4b. Re: TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
From: Sam Stutter
4c. Re: TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
From: Jan Strasser
5a. Re: Happy Ides of April!
From: neo gu
5b. Re: Happy Ides of April!
From: R A Brown
5c. Re: Happy Ides of April!
From: taliesin the storyteller
6a. Re: Fith lexicon
From: MorphemeAddict
6b. Re: Fith lexicon
From: Miles Forster
7a. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Alex Fink
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:05 am ((PDT))
Depends how bad it is, if it was mild they would stick around, and
probably get spiritual treatment for thier handicap. If it was sever
probably they would end up dead one way or another, either the clans
spiritual leader would ostracise them at birth or they would have a
"fall" while hunting if they didn' die of natural causes.
On 4/14/12, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2012, at 13:31, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
>>> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning difficulties".
>>> |:-|
>>
>> That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
>> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
>
> I was about to say something similar, but...
>
>> But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
>> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So in
>> Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as pets.
>> (http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29)
>>
> That may have just convinced me otherwise! At any rate, they're both
> English, just as choosing to use the politically correct term is as much
> "violating" the NCNC rule as choosing not to. I would point out that the
> rule itself is not apolitical or secular, since the cross is a Christian
> symbol and the crown a monarchist one! Having said that, coming up with an
> alternative would probably be difficult, and I guess it's quite intuitive,
> if you live in what was once defined as "Christendom"! :-)
>
> Jeff
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:35 am ((PDT))
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2012, at 13:31, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
> >> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning difficulties".
> |:-|
> >
> > That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
>
> I was about to say something similar, but...
>
> > But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So in
> Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as pets. (
> http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29
> )
> >
> That may have just convinced me otherwise! At any rate, they're both
> English, just as choosing to use the politically correct term is as much
> "violating" the NCNC rule as choosing not to. I would point out that the
> rule itself is not apolitical or secular, since the cross is a Christian
> symbol and the crown a monarchist one! Having said that, coming up with an
> alternative would probably be difficult, and I guess it's quite intuitive,
> if you live in what was once defined as "Christendom"! :-)
>
Both cross and crown are symbols of a belief in authority. In this regard
"cross" and "crown" are symbols not just of "Christian" and "monarchy" but
the broader concepts of religion and government in general.
stevo
>
> Jeff
>
Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:36 am ((PDT))
It's also the polite way to say it, and politeness isn't political.
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning difficulties".
>> |:-|
>>
>
> That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
> But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So in
> Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as pets. (
> http://delang.conlang.org/**wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_**
> .28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29<http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29>
> )
>
>
>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>> On 14 Apr 2012, at 12:30, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ<[email protected].**
>> ORG <[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> How does your society treat mentally retarded and muliti-handicapped
>>> people?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>>
>>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>>> ___
>>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>>>
>>
> --
> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>
> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
> ___
> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:40 am ((PDT))
As regards terms, what used to be referred to as "mentally retarded" is now
"mentally impaired". In technical terms, I believe it translates as two
standard deviations below the mean on an IQ test -- a step or two above
"severe/profound" and below mild learning disabilities. My mother happens
to be a special education teacher who used to work with mentally impaired
and even a few severe and profound disabilities, though now she mostly
works with students classified as having milder learning disabilities:
dyslexia, dyslexia, dyscalcula, etc.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:45 am ((PDT))
Until about two years ago I worked in a home for mentally retarded, and
that's how the residents were described, sometimes as MRDD, or mentally
retarded, developmentally delayed.
stevo
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:40 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> As regards terms, what used to be referred to as "mentally retarded" is now
> "mentally impaired". In technical terms, I believe it translates as two
> standard deviations below the mean on an IQ test -- a step or two above
> "severe/profound" and below mild learning disabilities. My mother happens
> to be a special education teacher who used to work with mentally impaired
> and even a few severe and profound disabilities, though now she mostly
> works with students classified as having milder learning disabilities:
> dyslexia, dyslexia, dyscalcula, etc.
>
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:47 am ((PDT))
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:44 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> Until about two years ago I worked in a home for mentally retarded, and
> that's how the residents were described, sometimes as MRDD, or mentally
> retarded, developmentally delayed.
>
> stevo
It likely varies by jurisdiction. What I mentioned is the technical
parlance used in the US (or at least in West Virginia).
Messages in this topic (13)
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1g. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:26 pm ((PDT))
Sent from my iPad
On 14 Apr 2012, at 18:36, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's also the polite way to say it, and politeness isn't political.
>
Sure it is. That's exactly why, for example, Members of the House of Commons
are supposed to address themselves to the speaker and refer to any member whom
they wish to address through the same as "My Honourable Friend", etc.
>
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
>>
>>> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning difficulties".
>>> |:-|
>>>
>>
>> That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
>> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
>> But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
>> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So in
>> Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as pets. (
>> http://delang.conlang.org/**wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_**
>> .28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29<http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29>
>> )
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sam Stutter
>>> [email protected]
>>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>>
>>> On 14 Apr 2012, at 12:30, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ<[email protected].**
>>> ORG <[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> How does your society treat mentally retarded and muliti-handicapped
>>>> people?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>>>
>>>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>>>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>>>> ___
>>>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>
>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>> ___
>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT))
More generally, politeness *can* be political. But then again, this is only
because politeness is something inherent to a particular culture. It's part of
the same lump of social code which dictates swearwords, topics of conversation
and the treatment of others.
AFAIK, abstractly, the point of NCNC is to spare the feelings of others on the
list in order to promote a better discursive environment. The point of
politeness, and political correctness for that matter, is so as to spare the
feelings of others for social cohesion.
(See! Nearly got this back onto linguistics!)
Isn't the point we're quibbling over here the lengths at which we she go to
spare the feelings of others? Which is an interesting study, I guess. NCNC *is*
political correctness; a centrally enforced set of politeness laws.
Or that's debatable, are they political correctness guidelines, or more akin to
equal-rights acts?
On 14 Apr 2012, at 20:26, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 14 Apr 2012, at 18:36, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It's also the polite way to say it, and politeness isn't political.
>>
> Sure it is. That's exactly why, for example, Members of the House of Commons
> are supposed to address themselves to the speaker and refer to any member
> whom they wish to address through the same as "My Honourable Friend", etc.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
>>>
>>>> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning difficulties".
>>>> |:-|
>>>>
>>>
>>> That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
>>> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
>>> But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
>>> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So in
>>> Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as pets. (
>>> http://delang.conlang.org/**wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_**
>>> .28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29<http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29>
>>> )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sam Stutter
>>>> [email protected]
>>>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>>>
>>>> On 14 Apr 2012, at 12:30, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ<[email protected].**
>>>> ORG <[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How does your society treat mentally retarded and muliti-handicapped
>>>>> people?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>>>>
>>>>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>>>>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>>>>> ___
>>>>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>>
>>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>>> ___
>>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
>> order from Finishing Line
>> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>> and
>> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Conworld: Mentally retarded
Posted by: "Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:02 pm ((PDT))
*yawn*
Can we get back to conworlding? Discussing political correctness is just
sooooo boring.
On 14.04.2012 14:31, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ wrote:
> On 14.04.2012 13:49, Sam Stutter wrote:
>> The English word you're looking for is "to have learning
>> difficulties". |:-|
>
> That may be the political correct way to say it, but this list has a
> NCNC-policy about the "real" world.
> But as an Illomi..., we have a easy way to deal with that topic. No
> consciousness equals no soul. No soul equals no legal protection. So
> in Illte we euthanize the soulless, unless the parents want them as
> pets.
> (http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Religion_in_Illte#Daugma_.28The_goddess_of_Opinion.29)
>
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>> On 14 Apr 2012, at 12:30, Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ
>> МаьіПаніљ<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> How does your society treat mentally retarded and muliti-handicapped
>>> people?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
>>>
>>> Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
>>> http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
>>> ___
>>> «Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
>
--
Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
___
«Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. Іљте Ьлеј: First article available (Fwd: Re: [Dela
Posted by: "Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:47 am ((PDT))
The first article from the newspaper Illte Key is now available @
http://illte.conlang.org
Updated dictionary is also available on the same site (link on bottom
right).
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Delang] Зелањінліберін
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:40:24 +0200
From: Koppa Dasao <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Delang (qdl) <[email protected]>
To: Mailinglist for the conlang Delang <[email protected]>
Ѕабаδо14іљ 4іљ ҩ. 2012 п.Ј.
(ансетіłељ тіłељ ҩłбі δвасеѕтансеδве поѕт Јесис.
Каселањінліберін гемтłені 753-лањін (земѕтапаδтłіслањін)
http://illte.conlang.org
Koppa Dasao
Glossarch and primorator of Delang
http://delang.conlang.org/ http://illte.conlang.org
_______________________________________________
Delang mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/delang-conlang.org
--
Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
___
«Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: "question words"
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:38 am ((PDT))
You almost used it yourself: interrogatives.
stevo
2012/4/14 René Uittenbogaard <[email protected]>
> Is there a name for the category encompassing all "question words",
> interrogative pronouns, interrogative adverbs, "wh-words" etc.?
>
> E.g. what, who, whose, which, where, how, what with, when, how much,
> and the German "der wievielte"?
>
> René
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: "question words"
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:42 am ((PDT))
Interrogatives is one. Wh-words works as well, but you might want to avoid
it when not discussing English.
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:37 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> You almost used it yourself: interrogatives.
>
> stevo
>
> 2012/4/14 René Uittenbogaard <[email protected]>
>
> > Is there a name for the category encompassing all "question words",
> > interrogative pronouns, interrogative adverbs, "wh-words" etc.?
> >
> > E.g. what, who, whose, which, where, how, what with, when, how much,
> > and the German "der wievielte"?
> >
> > René
> >
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
Posted by: "Jan Strasser" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:44 am ((PDT))
That elephant poem is pretty cool, and reading all those different
versions prompted me to attempt a translation myself. Not into a conlang
though (that may come at a later time), but I still decided to post it
to the list, in case some of you might want to read it or possibly even
produce some further translations.
Here's my German version of the poem:
Beine wie Bäume
Die Luft zerteilend in schwerem Treck
Schiffe wie Scheffel
Wellen durchmessend mit Fracht im Heck
Trophäen versendend. Korsarengeschick.
I've tried to focus on rhythm and sound more than on keeping the exact
semantics of the original, although I believe it's quite close at least
with regard to the general outline. Here's a fairly literal
back-translation into English:
Legs like trees
Cleaving the air in a heavy trek
Ships like bushels
Crossing waves with freight in the stern
Sending out trophies. A corsair's fortune.
Some remarks:
- Note that all verbs carry an applicative prefix, creating a
morphological parallelism which adds to the rhythmic structure of the poem.
- In order to describe the situation as vaguely and impressionistically
as possible, I've tried to reduce concrete grammatical information to a
minimum by using the indefinite plural form of nouns where appropriate,
and by using participles instead of finite verbs.
- The impression created by the indefinite plurals is reinforced with
the word "Treck", which was selected mainly because it rhymes with
"Heck" (I originally wrote "mit schwerem Schritt", i.e. "with heavy
step"), but which gives the welcome impression of not just one but
several elephants walking by.
- "Scheffel" (bushel) not just alliterates with "Schiffe" and includes
in its semantics the notion of a container carrying goods, but it also
evokes a connection with the idiomatic phrase "Geld scheffeln", i.e.
"(greedily) rake in money".
- "durchmessen" is literally "to measure through sth." To me, it
suggests something that's not present in the earlier translations but
seems to fit in well: the fact that overseas trade with exotic goods is
not just connected with adventure, luxury, and colonial exploitation,
but also with the origin of modern cartography, which can be seen
metaphorically as yet another way of (symbolically) controlling the world.
- German has no monomorphemic word for "tusks", and neither the literal
translation "Stoßzähne" ("push-teeth") nor the material-based
translation "Elfenbein" (ivory; lit. "elf bones") don't fit in here.
I've also decided to leave out the red color associated with the tusks
because it seemed a bit too explicit (and because I couldn't make it fit
into the rhythm of the poem). However, "Trophäen", i.e. "hunting
trophies", seems to capture some of the connotations of bloodiness, and
it interestingly shifts the focus somewhat, away from the ivory-hunting
corsairs and towards those European snobs who _buy_ ivory.
- "Geschick" is most straightforwardly translated as "fortune", but it
can also mean "skill", which brings in some nice ambiguity here.
Comments are welcome!
Jan
PS:
@David: If you like this translation, of course you can add it to the
webpage :)
Original message:
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:50:23 -0700
> From: David Peterson
> Subject: Re: Fith Texts
>
> Well, let me add a little bit, at least. First, Jeffrey Henning*did* write a
> text in Fith. He translated my elephant poem:
>
> http://dedalvs.com/sheli/poetry.html
>
> (Note: Dang. Those colors ARE pretty bad... You can change them
> here:http://dedalvs.com/css/ .)
Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:08 pm ((PDT))
I was meaning to make my own conlang translation of this, but haven't got
around to it yet.
I was interested to see that you had read "red" as "bloody", which I kinda
thought I was going out on a limb doing when I read it as that, but in
retrospect it's quite obvious. I might go for "sanguine" for extra poetry
points, come to think of it; whoever the corsairs are, they're certainly
hopeful they'll get a good price, selling to Chinese medicine dispensers :)
Does anyone have any idea if "freight in the stern" has some kind of idiomatic
meaning? Did ships load from the back forwards, or was it a method of showing
off?
Love your drive for plurality, not speaking German I can only get a vague sense
of what you've achieved though :( And the resulting change in message :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 14 Apr 2012, at 19:44, Jan Strasser <[email protected]> wrote:
> That elephant poem is pretty cool, and reading all those different versions
> prompted me to attempt a translation myself. Not into a conlang though (that
> may come at a later time), but I still decided to post it to the list, in
> case some of you might want to read it or possibly even produce some further
> translations.
>
>
> Here's my German version of the poem:
>
> Beine wie Bäume
> Die Luft zerteilend in schwerem Treck
> Schiffe wie Scheffel
> Wellen durchmessend mit Fracht im Heck
> Trophäen versendend. Korsarengeschick.
>
>
> I've tried to focus on rhythm and sound more than on keeping the exact
> semantics of the original, although I believe it's quite close at least with
> regard to the general outline. Here's a fairly literal back-translation into
> English:
>
> Legs like trees
> Cleaving the air in a heavy trek
> Ships like bushels
> Crossing waves with freight in the stern
> Sending out trophies. A corsair's fortune.
>
> Some remarks:
> - Note that all verbs carry an applicative prefix, creating a morphological
> parallelism which adds to the rhythmic structure of the poem.
> - In order to describe the situation as vaguely and impressionistically as
> possible, I've tried to reduce concrete grammatical information to a minimum
> by using the indefinite plural form of nouns where appropriate, and by using
> participles instead of finite verbs.
> - The impression created by the indefinite plurals is reinforced with the
> word "Treck", which was selected mainly because it rhymes with "Heck" (I
> originally wrote "mit schwerem Schritt", i.e. "with heavy step"), but which
> gives the welcome impression of not just one but several elephants walking by.
> - "Scheffel" (bushel) not just alliterates with "Schiffe" and includes in its
> semantics the notion of a container carrying goods, but it also evokes a
> connection with the idiomatic phrase "Geld scheffeln", i.e. "(greedily) rake
> in money".
> - "durchmessen" is literally "to measure through sth." To me, it suggests
> something that's not present in the earlier translations but seems to fit in
> well: the fact that overseas trade with exotic goods is not just connected
> with adventure, luxury, and colonial exploitation, but also with the origin
> of modern cartography, which can be seen metaphorically as yet another way of
> (symbolically) controlling the world.
> - German has no monomorphemic word for "tusks", and neither the literal
> translation "Stoßzähne" ("push-teeth") nor the material-based translation
> "Elfenbein" (ivory; lit. "elf bones") don't fit in here. I've also decided to
> leave out the red color associated with the tusks because it seemed a bit too
> explicit (and because I couldn't make it fit into the rhythm of the poem).
> However, "Trophäen", i.e. "hunting trophies", seems to capture some of the
> connotations of bloodiness, and it interestingly shifts the focus somewhat,
> away from the ivory-hunting corsairs and towards those European snobs who
> _buy_ ivory.
> - "Geschick" is most straightforwardly translated as "fortune", but it can
> also mean "skill", which brings in some nice ambiguity here.
>
> Comments are welcome!
> Jan
>
> PS:
> @David: If you like this translation, of course you can add it to the webpage
> :)
>
>
> Original message:
>> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:50:23 -0700
>> From: David Peterson
>> Subject: Re: Fith Texts
>>
>> Well, let me add a little bit, at least. First, Jeffrey Henning*did* write
>> a text in Fith. He translated my elephant poem:
>>
>> http://dedalvs.com/sheli/poetry.html
>>
>> (Note: Dang. Those colors ARE pretty bad... You can change them
>> here:http://dedalvs.com/css/ .)
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
Posted by: "Jan Strasser" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:45 am ((PDT))
Sam Stutter wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea if "freight in the stern" has some kind
> of idiomatic meaning? Did ships load from the back forwards, or was
> it a method of showing off?
AFAIK it doesn't have a special idiomatic meaning, except maybe among
people involved in sea trade. I was simply using the word for "stern"
metonymically, standing in for the ship as a whole...
Jan
Original message:
> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 00:08:24 +0100
> From: Sam Stutter <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: TC: Elephant poem (was: Fith Texts)
>
> I was meaning to make my own conlang translation of this, but haven't
> got around to it yet.
>
> I was interested to see that you had read "red" as "bloody", which I
> kinda thought I was going out on a limb doing when I read it as that,
> but in retrospect it's quite obvious. I might go for "sanguine" for
> extra poetry points, come to think of it; whoever the corsairs are,
> they're certainly hopeful they'll get a good price, selling to
> Chinese medicine dispensers :)
>
> Does anyone have any idea if "freight in the stern" has some kind
> of idiomatic meaning? Did ships load from the back forwards, or was
> it a method of showing off?
>
> Love your drive for plurality, not speaking German I can only get a
> vague sense of what you've achieved though :( And the resulting change
> in message :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
> On 14 Apr 2012, at 19:44, Jan Strasser <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > That elephant poem is pretty cool, and reading all those different
>> > versions prompted me to attempt a translation myself. Not into a conlang
>> > though (that may come at a later time), but I still decided to post it to
>> > the list, in case some of you might want to read it or possibly even
>> > produce some further translations.
>> >
>> >
>> > Here's my German version of the poem:
>> >
>> > Beine wie Bäume
>> > Die Luft zerteilend in schwerem Treck
>> > Schiffe wie Scheffel
>> > Wellen durchmessend mit Fracht im Heck
>> > Trophäen versendend. Korsarengeschick.
>> >
>> >
>> > I've tried to focus on rhythm and sound more than on keeping the exact
>> > semantics of the original, although I believe it's quite close at least
>> > with regard to the general outline. Here's a fairly literal
>> > back-translation into English:
>> >
>> > Legs like trees
>> > Cleaving the air in a heavy trek
>> > Ships like bushels
>> > Crossing waves with freight in the stern
>> > Sending out trophies. A corsair's fortune.
>> >
>> > Some remarks:
>> > - Note that all verbs carry an applicative prefix, creating a
>> > morphological parallelism which adds to the rhythmic structure of the poem.
>> > - In order to describe the situation as vaguely and impressionistically
>> > as possible, I've tried to reduce concrete grammatical information to a
>> > minimum by using the indefinite plural form of nouns where appropriate,
>> > and by using participles instead of finite verbs.
>> > - The impression created by the indefinite plurals is reinforced with the
>> > word "Treck", which was selected mainly because it rhymes with "Heck" (I
>> > originally wrote "mit schwerem Schritt", i.e. "with heavy step"), but
>> > which gives the welcome impression of not just one but several elephants
>> > walking by.
>> > - "Scheffel" (bushel) not just alliterates with "Schiffe" and includes in
>> > its semantics the notion of a container carrying goods, but it also evokes
>> > a connection with the idiomatic phrase "Geld scheffeln", i.e. "(greedily)
>> > rake in money".
>> > - "durchmessen" is literally "to measure through sth." To me, it suggests
>> > something that's not present in the earlier translations but seems to fit
>> > in well: the fact that overseas trade with exotic goods is not just
>> > connected with adventure, luxury, and colonial exploitation, but also with
>> > the origin of modern cartography, which can be seen metaphorically as yet
>> > another way of (symbolically) controlling the world.
>> > - German has no monomorphemic word for "tusks", and neither the literal
>> > translation "Stoßzähne" ("push-teeth") nor the material-based translation
>> > "Elfenbein" (ivory; lit. "elf bones") don't fit in here. I've also decided
>> > to leave out the red color associated with the tusks because it seemed a
>> > bit too explicit (and because I couldn't make it fit into the rhythm of
>> > the poem). However, "Trophäen", i.e. "hunting trophies", seems to capture
>> > some of the connotations of bloodiness, and it interestingly shifts the
>> > focus somewhat, away from the ivory-hunting corsairs and towards those
>> > European snobs who_buy_ ivory.
>> > - "Geschick" is most straightforwardly translated as "fortune", but it
>> > can also mean "skill", which brings in some nice ambiguity here.
>> >
>> > Comments are welcome!
>> > Jan
>> >
>> > PS:
>> > @David: If you like this translation, of course you can add it to the
>> > webpage :)
>> >
>> >
>> > Original message:
>>> >> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:50:23 -0700
>>> >> From: David Peterson
>>> >> Subject: Re: Fith Texts
>>> >>
>>> >> Well, let me add a little bit, at least. First, Jeffrey Henning*did*
>>> >> write a text in Fith. He translated my elephant poem:
>>> >>
>>> >> http://dedalvs.com/sheli/poetry.html
>>> >>
>>> >> (Note: Dang. Those colors ARE pretty bad... You can change them
>>> >> here:http://dedalvs.com/css/ .)
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Happy Ides of April!
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:11 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:15:57 +0100, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>Salvete onmes!
>
>Happy Ides of April!
>
>I've decided now is the time to come out of my self-imposed
>'hibernation' and return to the list.
welcome back.
>During my period away I had intended to work on Brx, but got
>side-tracked ;)
>As I worked on TAKE, I felt more and more that I would like
>to work on a vaguely Greek-based conlang that did not have
>the constraints I had imposed on TAKE. The result is
>'Outidic' which uses the Roman alphabet and is a fictional
>17th century auxlang.
>http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
>http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/OrthoAndPhono.html
I took a quick look; it seems you've been busy!
The one comment I have is that the text is wider than my screen,
so I have to scroll back and forth to read it. Otherwise OK.
--
neogu
>
>--
>Ray
>==================================
>http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>==================================
>Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
>There's none too old to learn.
>[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Happy Ides of April!
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:40 pm ((PDT))
On 15/04/2012 00:10, neo gu wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:15:57 +0100, R A
> Brown<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Salvete onmes!
>>
>> Happy Ides of April!
>>
>> I've decided now is the time to come out of my
>> self-imposed 'hibernation' and return to the list.
>
> welcome back.
Thank you.
>> During my period away I had intended to work on Brx,
>> but got side-tracked ;)
>
>> As I worked on TAKE, I felt more and more that I would
>> like to work on a vaguely Greek-based conlang that did
>> not have the constraints I had imposed on TAKE. The
>> result is 'Outidic' which uses the Roman alphabet and
>> is a fictional 17th century auxlang.
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/OrthoAndPhono.html
>
>>
> I took a quick look; it seems you've been busy! The one
> comment I have is that the text is wider than my screen,
> so I have to scroll back and forth to read it. Otherwise
> OK.
Ah, it's a lot less narrower than mine ;)
I know this has been discussed before, but what is
considered the ideal width for such text?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Happy Ides of April!
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:03 am ((PDT))
On 2012-04-15 08:40, R A Brown wrote:
> On 15/04/2012 00:10, neo gu wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:15:57 +0100, R A
>> Brown<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
>>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/OrthoAndPhono.html
>>
>> I took a quick look; it seems you've been busy! The one
>> comment I have is that the text is wider than my screen,
>> so I have to scroll back and forth to read it.
>
> Ah, it's a lot less narrower than mine ;)
>
> I know this has been discussed before, but what is
> considered the ideal width for such text?
I do notice that most of the css use em's to scale things (making them
font-dependent,
table.navbar {border-collapse:collapse; border:0; font-size:0.9em;
border-left:1px solid blue; }
while the width of the content is set using pixels:
.content {
background: #fff5ee;
margin-left: auto;
margin-right: auto;
padding:10px;
width: 860px;
text-align: left;
overflow: auto;
z-index: 1;
}
In the olden times when I learnt text processing in high school (with
Word Perfect!) the widest width of any column of text was 66
*characters*. That does not convert into 66 *ems* though as while an em
is the width of the M, the width of a character was an average of all
widths IIRC, so a bit less than an em.
You could also try to replace the "width: 860px;" with "max-width:
860px;", which should do as it says on the tin.
neo gu, can your browser scale pages with ctrl-plus and ctrl-minus?
t.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Fith lexicon
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:13 pm ((PDT))
I just uploaded my Fith lexicon to Googles Documents. I would like to know
if others can access it there. It's called "Fith lexicon using online
translator" and it started as an Excel spreadsheet. I think Google
converted it to a different format, but I'm not sure.
stevo
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:51 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> Using the online Fith translator and the grammar notes, I now have a Fith
> lexicon again. It's probably not quite as good as the one that used to be
> online, but it'll have to do me for now.
>
> stevo
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Fith lexicon
Posted by: "Miles Forster" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:33 am ((PDT))
Link?
Googling didn't bring it up for me.
Am 15.04.2012 05:12, schrieb MorphemeAddict:
> I just uploaded my Fith lexicon to Googles Documents. I would like to know
> if others can access it there. It's called "Fith lexicon using online
> translator" and it started as an Excel spreadsheet. I think Google
> converted it to a different format, but I'm not sure.
>
> stevo
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:51 PM, MorphemeAddict<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Using the online Fith translator and the grammar notes, I now have a Fith
>> lexicon again. It's probably not quite as good as the one that used to be
>> online, but it'll have to do me for now.
>>
>> stevo
>>
--
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7a. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:22 am ((PDT))
Ah, but now I see my other pet peeve about the Brown archive remains unfixed.
Namely, the navigation links (First, Previous, Next, Last) have a misfeature --
they only go to the next or previous message, or message in this thread, or
whatever, _in the current calendar week and month_, and if there's none they're
not provided. Pity.
Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
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