There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: New to the Message Board : Long-time Conlang Dicipherer
From: Alex Fink
1b. Re: New to the Message Board : Long-time Conlang Dicipherer
From: Lee
2a. Re: Relay 19 is being planned
From: Sai
3a. Re: Who invented this?
From: Alex Fink
4a. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
From: Jan Strasser
5a. Gender in First Person Singular
From: Casey Borders
5b. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jesse Bangs
5c. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Wm Annis
5d. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Daniel Bowman
5e. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Daniel Burgener
5f. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
5g. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Daniel Bowman
5h. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Wm Annis
5i. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Matthew Boutilier
5j. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Billy JB
5k. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Scott Brewer
5l. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Zach Wellstood
5m. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Matthew Boutilier
5n. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Roger Mills
5o. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: George Marques
5p. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: MorphemeAddict
5q. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Zach Wellstood
5r. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5s. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Logan Kearsley
6a. Re: Outidic verbs
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: New to the Message Board : Long-time Conlang Dicipherer
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 8:03 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:02:23 -0400, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, sitting and watching a new message board for a tad and learning how the
>folks conduct themselves there is never a bad idea. But speaking for this
>list alone, we have a FAQ:
> http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
Actually, given the discussion Mr. Willikers has spurred about the usual tenor
of conversation and standards of politeness &c around here, it'd be great if
someone could synopsise these observations into the FAQ. (I would but I don't
anticipate having time to this week...)
Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: New to the Message Board : Long-time Conlang Dicipherer
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 9:13 am ((PDT))
Seems like the paragraph you quoted would cover it.
Common sense and courtesy aside, I have a feeling the people inclined to behave
as we have seen would probably not read it anyway.
Lee
________________________________
From: Alex Fink
Sent: 5/1/2012 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New to the Message Board : Long-time Conlang Dicipherer
On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:02:23 -0400, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, sitting and watching a new message board for a tad and learning how the
>folks conduct themselves there is never a bad idea. But speaking for this
>list alone, we have a FAQ:
> http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
Actually, given the discussion Mr. Willikers has spurred about the usual tenor
of conversation and standards of politeness &c around here, it'd be great if
someone could synopsise these observations into the FAQ. (I would but I don't
anticipate having time to this week...)
Alex
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Relay 19 is being planned
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 8:04 am ((PDT))
FWIW, this'll actually be my first relay to participate in (w/ Alex,
using UNLWS).
Whee.
- Sai
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:50, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> For those not following the relay list, Amanda has just announced over
> there that she's got a text in preparation, and signups have started.
>
> On 27 April 2012 17:41, Amanda Babcock Furrow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've been planning one, actually. An old-fashioned curated relay with
>> a proven (mostly) relay-master, who will make sure the various rings
>> actually continue until completion :)
>>
>> I just have to finalize the text!
>
> If you want in and you're not on the relay list, send mail to Irina
> ([email protected]) and she'll subscribe you manually; there are
> problems with the online subscription whatsit.
>
> Here's the approximate list of current participants at Frath:
> http://www.frathwiki.com/Conlang_Relay_19
>
> Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Who invented this?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 8:07 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:11:22 -0700, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>Aaron Toivo as a part of the Akana project.
Yup, AKA Radius on the ZBB.
And he wants to do something really cool with it, namely develop from it "a
consonant-heavy, full-blown polysynthetic, Pacific Northwest style language" by
interaction with the Western languages of Akana:
http://akana.dreamersdisease.de/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=90
Alex
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
Posted by: "Jan Strasser" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:30 am ((PDT))
All of the existing Akana conlangs* are open to this kind of thing,
provided the derivation process aims to be naturalistic and the
resulting language is intended for the same conworld. In case anyone is
interested in contributing to the Akana project in this way, have a look
at our FAQ** and drop by at the AkanaForum***. We're happy to welcome
new participants, and to answer any questions you might have while
familiarizing yourself with the existing material.
Jan (Cedh)
* Some languages might not be documented well enough to work with, and
three others (Ndak Ta, Adāta, and Proto-Western) should probably not
have (m)any further direct daughters in order for the family trees to
remain realistic. All the other Akana languages are fair game though.
** http://tzirtzi.ipage.com/akana/index.php?title=AkanaWiki:About
*** http://akana.dreamersdisease.de
Original message:
> On 30 Apr 2012, at 18:57, Matthew A. Gurevitch wrote:
>
> No option for those who are too shy to share our own not even
> close to finished conlangs and would like to join in just working
> with other people's languages?
>
> Matthew
>
> [...]
>>> >>
>>> >> On 30 Apr 2012, at 13:37, Fenhl wrote:
>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 2012-4-30 12:15, Sam Stutter<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> >>>> We could swap conlangs and then use the language we receive to
>>>>> >>>> develop
> another related language or dialect; a predecessor, a future form, a sister
> language, a creole developed from contact with another language (possibly our
> own conlang), a pidgin, or a dialect of another language spoken by descendants
> of the received conlang.
>>>> >>> You mean like the games that resulted in the Akana conworld?
> http://www.frathwiki.com/Akana
>>> >>
>> >
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:40 am ((PDT))
My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently in
the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
I would say:
� ����� /ya ustal/
She would say:
� ������ /ya ustala/
I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way. Is
this a common thing to do or not?
*
*
*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (19)
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5b. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jesse Bangs" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:47 am ((PDT))
French and German certainly *do* do this, when using expressions that
consist of TO BE + PP, which is what the Russian statement is equivalent
to. It's just harder to see because of Russian's zero copula.
I don't know French or German, but in Romanian we have:
M: Eu sunt obosit.
F: Eu sunt obosită.
Which is syntactically equivalent to the Russian in every way.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
> have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently in
> the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
>
> I would say:
> Я устал /ya ustal/
>
> She would say:
> Я устала /ya ustala/
>
> I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way. Is
> this a common thing to do or not?
> *
> *
> *Casey Borders*
>
--
JS Bangs
[email protected]
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of
Alexandria
Messages in this topic (19)
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5c. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:01 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
> have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently in
> the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
Is this really conjugation? IIRC, it's agreement with a verbal
adjective. This same pattern appears in some varieties of
Aramaic, where it is definitely gender agreement with a participle.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org � www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (19)
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5d. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:07 pm ((PDT))
>
>
> Is this really conjugation? IIRC, it's agreement with a verbal
> adjective. This same pattern appears in some varieties of
> Aramaic, where it is definitely gender agreement with a participle.
>
I think that makes more sense than a gender-based conjugation. It's not
that "tired" is a verb, it's an adjective with the copula, which in French,
etc, will take gender agreement. I will hasten to add I am not experienced
in Russian or similar languages.
I think the end-all resolution will be to see if any action verbs or the
like conjugate differently based on gender: is "He sees" conjugated
differently than "She sees"?
In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do this?
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org � www.scholiastae.org
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5e. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Daniel Burgener" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:14 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jesse Bangs <[email protected]> wrote:
> French and German certainly *do* do this, when using expressions that
> consist of TO BE + PP, which is what the Russian statement is equivalent
> to. It's just harder to see because of Russian's zero copula.
>
I'm not a fluent speaker of German at all, but I have taken 5 years of it
in school and never encountered such a form. I'd love it if someone could
provide an example.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> I think the end-all resolution will be to see if any action verbs or the
> like conjugate differently based on gender: is "He sees" conjugated
> differently than "She sees"?
>
> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do this?
>
Did you mean the third person singular here or first person singular (as in
the original question)? My conlang Brenjak conjugates verbs differently
for gender differences in the third person but not the first person:
Reîkîateî rinϕaλ.
I have a cat. (regardless of gender)
Feîkîateî rinϕaλ.
He has a cat.
Meîkîateî rinϕaλ.
She has a cat.
-Daniel
Messages in this topic (19)
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5f. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:15 pm ((PDT))
Apparently, in Hebrew, "I know" is " yode'a" if you're a man, but "yoda'at" if
you're a woman.
Jeff
Sent from my iPhone
On 1 May 2012, at 20:07, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is this really conjugation? IIRC, it's agreement with a verbal
>> adjective. This same pattern appears in some varieties of
>> Aramaic, where it is definitely gender agreement with a participle.
>>
>
> I think that makes more sense than a gender-based conjugation. It's not
> that "tired" is a verb, it's an adjective with the copula, which in French,
> etc, will take gender agreement. I will hasten to add I am not experienced
> in Russian or similar languages.
>
> I think the end-all resolution will be to see if any action verbs or the
> like conjugate differently based on gender: is "He sees" conjugated
> differently than "She sees"?
>
> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do this?
>
>>
>> --
>> William S. Annis
>> www.aoidoi.org • www.scholiastae.org
>>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5g. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:16 pm ((PDT))
>
>
> Did you mean the third person singular here or first person singular (as in
> the original question)? My conlang Brenjak conjugates verbs differently
> for gender differences in the third person but not the first person:
>
Any pronoun with gender, really. On second thought, conjugating for
different genders in the 1st or 2nd person would be the most unusual!
>
> Reîkîateî rinϕaλ.
> I have a cat. (regardless of gender)
>
> Feîkîateî rinϕaλ.
> He has a cat.
>
> Meîkîateî rinϕaλ.
> She has a cat.
>
> -Daniel
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5h. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:25 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:16 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Any pronoun with gender, really. �On second thought, conjugating for
> different genders in the 1st or 2nd person would be the most unusual!
In most Semitic languages 2nd person pronouns have both
masculine and feminine forms, which extends to verb conjugation.
Things can get crazy in the plural, language by language. Not
all have separate forms. Hausa, a more distant relative in the
Afro-asiatic family, also makes this distinction in the singular.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org � www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (19)
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5i. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:25 pm ((PDT))
the (modern) hebrew example is also (originally) a participial
construction. _yodea'_ is a masculine adj, _yoda'at_ feminine.
german:
ich bin erster. (for a man)
i am first-MASC.NOM
ich bin erste. (for a woman)
i am first-FEM.NOM
because historically in germanic, ordinal adjectives always take weak
endings, though that's beside the point.
matt
On Tuesday, May 1, 2012, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
> Apparently, in Hebrew, "I know" is " yode'a" if you're a man, but
> "yoda'at" if you're a woman.
>
> Jeff
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 1 May 2012, at 20:07, Daniel Bowman
> <[email protected]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Is this really conjugation? IIRC, it's agreement with a verbal
> >> adjective. This same pattern appears in some varieties of
> >> Aramaic, where it is definitely gender agreement with a participle.
> >>
> >
> > I think that makes more sense than a gender-based conjugation. It's not
> > that "tired" is a verb, it's an adjective with the copula, which in
> French,
> > etc, will take gender agreement. I will hasten to add I am not
> experienced
> > in Russian or similar languages.
> >
> > I think the end-all resolution will be to see if any action verbs or the
> > like conjugate differently based on gender: is "He sees" conjugated
> > differently than "She sees"?
> >
> > In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do
> this?
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> William S. Annis
> >> www.aoidoi.org � www.scholiastae.org
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5j. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Billy JB" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:36 pm ((PDT))
As far as I know, German adjectives are not conjugated for gender nor
number when in a predicative position, so "I am sad" would be "ich bin *
traurig*" and "they are sad" would be "sie sind *traurig*".
On the contrary, both the Romance languages and the Slavic languages have a
tendency from what I've seen to inflect for gender in participles
(*cough*everythingsavepureverbsandcertainpronouns*cough*) leading to things
such as:
EN: I am tired (male) / I am tired (female) / We are tired
SP: Yo estoy cansad*o* / Yo estoy cansad*a / *Nosotros estamos cansados
FR: Je suis fatigué / Je suis fatiguée / Nous sommes fatigués
LA: Defessus sum / Defessa sum / Defessi sumus
I am but a beginning student of BCS (A south Slavic language) which
similarly to Russian forms the past tense with an active past participle
(think, "eating" but in the past, i.e. active, not passive like "eaten").
EN: I have spoken.
BCS: Ja sam govorio (male) (from earlier *govoril)
BCS: Ja sam govorila (female)
Now, Russian has dropped the copula in almost all situations which leads to
the past tense being something like Pronoun + Past Active Participle.
RUS: Ya govoril. (male)
RUS: Ya govorila (female)
I think. Bit sketchy on Russian.
Messages in this topic (19)
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5k. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Scott Brewer" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 12:37 pm ((PDT))
Russian conjugates all past tense verbs according to gender. It stems from a
participle in Old Church Slavonic, from which Russian evolved.
A man would say "Я был" (I was), whereas a woman would say "Я была." Or "Я
привык" vs. "Я привыкла " (I got used to). It is a common trait in Slavic
languages.
Messages in this topic (19)
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5l. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 1:02 pm ((PDT))
I took a very basic class in Levantine Arabic, but if I'm not mistaken,
doesn't Arabic have a lot of instances when you conjugate a verb
differently based on the gender of whom you're speaking to? That's what I
can recall of the class.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Scott Brewer <[email protected]>wrote:
> Russian conjugates all past tense verbs according to gender. It stems from
> a participle in Old Church Slavonic, from which Russian evolved.
>
> A man would say "Я был" (I was), whereas a woman would say "Я была." Or "Я
> привык" vs. "Я привыкла " (I got used to). It is a common trait in Slavic
> languages.
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (19)
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5m. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 1:29 pm ((PDT))
> because historically in germanic, ordinal adjectives always take weak
> endings, though that's beside the point.
>
on t'other hand, matt, "erster" and "erste" are strong forms, and what you
said is irrelevant since we're dealing with modern languages. thanks,
other-matt. that's what happens when i reply impulsively from my phone.
the (modern) hebrew example is also (originally) a participial
> construction. _yodea'_ is a masculine adj, _yoda'at_ feminine.
>
to be more precise: the forms are properly:
'ani yodea` = i knowing-MASC
'ani yoda`at' = i knowing-FEM
the forms are indeed participial in origin, from the proto-semitic present
participle shape *pārisum, i.e. *yādi`um (for the masc.) > *yāde`um > *yādē`um
> *yādē` > *yōdē` > Hebrew yōdēa` (epenthetic /a/ introduced between front
vowel and final [former] pharyngeal). compare this to the same shape in
Arabic, kātib "writing(MASC)."
thanks again, other-matt. seriously, don't mention it.
As far as I know, German adjectives are not conjugated for gender nor
> number when in a predicative position, so "I am sad" would be "ich bin *
> traurig*" and "they are sad" would be "sie sind *traurig*".
>
in general -- viz. in most syntactical situations -- that's right. but see
the example with "erste" above. when there's an implicit _the_ (i am _the_
first, second, etc.) the situation differs. and in your example you're not
saying "i'm *the* sad one," but rather "i'm sad."
I took a very basic class in Levantine Arabic, but if I'm not mistaken,
> doesn't Arabic have a lot of instances when you conjugate a verb
> differently based on the gender of whom you're speaking to? That's what I
> can recall of the class.
>
yes. arabic and semitic in general *actually* differentiate two genders
everywhere in the second person -- pronouns, verbs, everywhere. not in the
first person, however. in the first person it's similar to the european
situation, with adjectives (*and*, by virtue of that, *participles*)
inflecting for gender -- Egyptian Arabic: 'ana mrawwa7 "i (masc) am going
home" ; 'ana mrawwa7a "i (fem) am going home."
so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
*pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
hell for children
to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
wesaþ hale
matt
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Zach Wellstood <[email protected]> wrote:
> I took a very basic class in Levantine Arabic, but if I'm not mistaken,
> doesn't Arabic have a lot of instances when you conjugate a verb
> differently based on the gender of whom you're speaking to? That's what I
> can recall of the class.
>
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Scott Brewer <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > Russian conjugates all past tense verbs according to gender. It stems
> from
> > a participle in Old Church Slavonic, from which Russian evolved.
> >
> > A man would say "Я был" (I was), whereas a woman would say "Я была." Or
> "Я
> > привык" vs. "Я привыкла " (I got used to). It is a common trait in Slavic
> > languages.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> <Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
> ra'aalalí 'a!
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5n. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 1:44 pm ((PDT))
I think all the Romance languages would do the same.
Span. (M) estoy cansado, (F) estoy cansada
Ital. (M) sono stanco, (F) sono stanca
Portuguese I don't know 'tired'......but it would vary with -o ~ -a too.
But if you're using a conjugated form, no-- e.g. Span. se me canso 'I'm tired
of it, it tires me' whether it's a male or female speaker.
======================================================
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jesse Bangs <[email protected]> wrote:
> French and German certainly *do* do this, when using expressions that
> consist of TO BE + PP, which is what the Russian statement is equivalent
> to. It's just harder to see because of Russian's zero copula.
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5o. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "George Marques" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 1:59 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 1 May 2012 15:29:52 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]>
wrote:
>so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
>*pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
>hell for children
>to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
I don't know Japanese, but I had an introduction in it and I remember that
there was certain constructions that could sound *feminine*. There's a
difference (I don't know which) between "watashi" and "boku"; both are pronouns
for the first person and they imply formality/gender in some way.
On Tue, 1 May 2012 13:44:04 -0700, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>I think all the Romance languages would do the same.
>Span. (M) estoy cansado, (F) estoy cansada
>Ital. (M) sono stanco, (F) sono stanca
>Portuguese I don't know 'tired'......but it would vary with -o ~ -a too.
>
>But if you're using a conjugated form, no-- e.g. Span. se me canso 'I'm tired
>of it, it tires me' whether it's a male or female speaker.
In Portuguese would be "estou cansado" (male) and "estou cansada" (female).
Messages in this topic (19)
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5p. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 2:21 pm ((PDT))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_pronoun
Under Tocharian it says:
Uniquely among Indo-European languages,
Tocharian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages> A
(also known as Eastern Tocharian) distinguishes gender in the *first* person,
using *näṣ* for the male speaker and *ñuk* for the female
speaker.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_pronoun#cite_note-2>
Under Japanese:
... pronouns in Japanese usually have traditionally carried a strong gender
connotation (though it has somewhat weakened nowadays), even first-person
ones. For instance, *ore* (俺 or オレ) or *boku* (僕 or ボク) is used as 'I'/'me'
mainly by men (women have begun using *boku* nowadays), while *watashi* (私
or わたし) or *atashi* (あたし or アタシ) is used by females.
Thai also has gender-distinct pronouns.
I can't think of any others.
stevo
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
> have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently in
> the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
>
> I would say:
> Я устал /ya ustal/
>
> She would say:
> Я устала /ya ustala/
>
> I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way. Is
> this a common thing to do or not?
> *
> *
> *Casey Borders*
>
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
5q. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 2:21 pm ((PDT))
Wikipedia says... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_language#Pronouns
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:59 PM, George Marques <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 15:29:52 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> >so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
> >*pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
> >hell for children
> >to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
>
> I don't know Japanese, but I had an introduction in it and I remember that
> there was certain constructions that could sound *feminine*. There's a
> difference (I don't know which) between "watashi" and "boku"; both are
> pronouns for the first person and they imply formality/gender in some way.
>
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 13:44:04 -0700, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I think all the Romance languages would do the same.
> >Span. (M) estoy cansado, (F) estoy cansada
> >Ital. (M) sono stanco, (F) sono stanca
> >Portuguese I don't know 'tired'......but it would vary with -o ~ -a too.
> >
> >But if you're using a conjugated form, no-- e.g. Span. se me canso 'I'm
> tired of it, it tires me' whether it's a male or female speaker.
>
> In Portuguese would be "estou cansado" (male) and "estou cansada" (female).
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
5r. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 2:22 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:59 PM, George Marques <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 15:29:52 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> >so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
> >*pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
> >hell for children
> >to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
>
> I don't know Japanese, but I had an introduction in it and I remember that
> there was certain constructions that could sound *feminine*. There's a
> difference (I don't know which) between "watashi" and "boku"; both are
> pronouns for the first person and they imply formality/gender in some way.
Well, as an anime fan I can add that they sometimes make jokes when a girl
uses a "boyish" 1p pronouns. For instance, Kanon TV2. The boy protagonist
asks a girl protagonist why does she use "boku" to herself. So when she
asks, what is she to say, he suggests saying "ore" which is even more
boyish. So, for non-Japanese, the phrase
"Ore-wa Tsukimiya Ayu"
in the mouth of a *kawaii* girl is not that easy to get, but for a Japanese
in is a really funny joke. And a boy would be regarded as a pervert if he
uses "tashi" to himself, which is normal for girls.
At least it is so in anime.
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 13:44:04 -0700, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I think all the Romance languages would do the same.
> >Span. (M) estoy cansado, (F) estoy cansada
> >Ital. (M) sono stanco, (F) sono stanca
> >Portuguese I don't know 'tired'......but it would vary with -o ~ -a too.
> >
> >But if you're using a conjugated form, no-- e.g. Span. se me canso 'I'm
> tired of it, it tires me' whether it's a male or female speaker.
>
> In Portuguese would be "estou cansado" (male) and "estou cansada" (female).
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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5s. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 2:25 pm ((PDT))
On 1 May 2012 14:29, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
> *pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
> hell for children
> to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
I don't see as how it would be any *more* confusing than learning
different gendered forms of predicate adjectives/participles in the
first person, and children learn that just fine. Actually, it seems to
me it wouldn't even be a significant addition to the problem of
learning personal pronouns in general; one of my nephews for quite
some time had figured out "you" to be his name, "I" and "he" to be
generic third-person pronouns, and "she" to mean "mom". Since he
managed to get "I" vs. "you" and "he" vs. "she" all figured out, I
doubt I-masc. vs. I-fem. would've been more trouble.
Others' responses about Thai, Tocharian, and Japanese do make me feel
better about the natlanginess of Mev Pailom's first-person pronouns,
though.
-l.
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Outidic verbs
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 2:08 pm ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 5/1/12, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Given that this is a fictitious auxlang of a previous
> > century, do I assume right that Dr. Outis is also a
> > fictional person?
>
> Google is your friend:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outis
Ah, eucharisto! Seems to be a quite popular nom de wossname; and this
does actually answer my unasked question.
Guess I'll have to wait to find out more about the illustrious Doctor!
Padraic
>
> > Have you discovered anything about him, his life,
> place
> > in society or activities?
>
> Not yet ;)
>
> > Speaking for myself, I'd like to learn something about
> > the illustrious auxlanger as well as the language!
>
> The language is coming along gradually - the illustrious
> Doctor is another matter.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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