There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
From: Puey McCleary
2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Matthew Boutilier
2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Logan Kearsley
2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jim Henry
2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Daniel Bowman
2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Ian Spolarich
2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Krzysztof Mitko
2.7. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Krzysztof Mitko
2.8. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Njenfalgar
2.9. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2.10. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Krzysztof Mitko
3a. Complement phrases in different languages
From: Allison Nicol
3b. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Matthew Boutilier
3c. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Wm Annis
3d. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Zach Wellstood
3e. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Allison Swenson
3f. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Daniel Bowman
3g. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
4a. Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Ian Spolarich
4b. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Patrick Dunn
4c. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Padraic Brown
4d. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Wm Annis
4e. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Sam Stutter
4f. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: George Corley
5a. Re: Indexed Predicates Sketch
From: neo gu
Messages
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1a. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:01 pm ((PDT))
*
*Well, Ill try my hand at this Monster Sentence. As far as I can tell,
this is at the part where the White Rabbit is addressing the Queen of
Hearts (Suzerain Speaker of Blood) at the trial.
*
Qlúsàlwos fhoayùtya púqi xaûkhni poxhaxhnixing aînoiyAnìsuli xhnoe
pajeyàqwanita poxhing keixhloas keixhloas twaqtoâkhot jakhnakhìthyu fheil
khitlhepelóngeyalwosyingpenìngpen xhluntìyejikh fhúnàyaloi poxhing xhnoe
pejor euxujúfhuyèlkhum khnenopaingakh eixhrejor khùsqai qìr xhré
plaqàyepakh poxhayaning fheil qlúsàlwos túnelawetsáthoyùtya jakhnaxùxhwail
khmo jakhnayixhmequyèpwo qúfhayàxhmikh jhpèporu pfhu aqhus xhniiyapònya
thiî si poxhing saqyaimùthyar teiqhatlháme khorna qir tnerqhefhírexhe
poaqing áxe poxhayaning jhkheî pfhe pú katlhiyatserengutùxhwi
jaipiréqayithniyènwe pwinepayùpwar pi púxhri Xhmaungefhwajàyaning
teiqhatrieyexhyeuyàntonging.
*
*
If I, by nature, have any ability, oh creative Chorus Members, and I know
however scanty my ability is, or if I have e'er practiced being a psalmist,
and with regards to that art I do not deny that I have set out to practice
with practice to improve my skills, or if I have any method from my hwyl
and from my study of mad linguistics and from careful discipline whose
examination I have set out to study in all the yesterdays in my lifetime,
as I admit, in terms of all these qualities the Suzerain Speaker of Blood
is certainly honored to receive this benefit from me, a stranger, as his
own birthright.
*
@@
*
Qlúsàlwos fhoayùtya púqi xaûkhni poxhaxhnixing aînoiyAnìsuli
**
If I, by nature, have any ability, oh creative Chorus Members,
**
Xhnoe pajeyàqwanita poxhing keixhloas keixhloas twaqtoâkhot jakhnakhìthyu
**
And I know however scanty my ability is
**
Fheil khitlhepelóngeyalwosyingpenìngpen xhluntìyejikh fhúnàyaloi poxhing
**
Or if I have e'er practiced being a psalmist
**
Xhnoe pejor euxujúfhuyèlkhum khnenopaingakh eixhrejor khùsqai qìr xhré
plaqàyepakh poxhayaning
**
And with regards to that art I do not deny that I have set out to practice
with practice to improve my skills,
**
Fheil qlúsàlwos túnelawetsáthoyùtya jakhnaxùxhwail khmo jakhnayixhmequyèpwo
qúfhayàxhmikh jhpèporu pfhu aqhus xhniiyapònya thiî si poxhing
saqyaimùthyar teiqhatlháme khorna qir tnerqhefhírexhe poaqing áxe
poxhayaning jhkheî pfhe pú
**
Or if I have any method from my hwyl and from my study of mad linguistics
and from careful discipline whose examination I have set out to study in
all the yesterdays in my lifetime, as I admit,
*
*
Katlhiyatserengutùxhwi jaipiréqayithniyènwe pwinepayùpwar pi púxhri
Xhmaungefhwajàyaning teiqhatrieyexhyeuyàntonging.
**
In terms of all these qualities the Suzerain Speaker of Blood is certainly
honored to receive this benefit from me, a stranger, as his own birthright.
*
Messages in this topic (11)
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2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:31 pm ((PDT))
>
> I don't see as how it would be any *more* confusing than learning
> different gendered forms of predicate adjectives/participles in the
> first person, and children learn that just fine. Actually, it seems to
> me it wouldn't even be a significant addition to the problem of
> learning personal pronouns in general; one of my nephews for quite
> some time had figured out "you" to be his name, "I" and "he" to be
> generic third-person pronouns, and "she" to mean "mom". Since he
> managed to get "I" vs. "you" and "he" vs. "she" all figured out, I
> doubt I-masc. vs. I-fem. would've been more trouble.
>
no, you're right, i shouldn't've said that. although i've read lately how
pronouns, at least in English, are often one of the last features of the
language that a native-learning child masters (doubtless because their
relative, constantly-changing antecedents). while children can obviously
figure out any morphology in the natlang world given enough time, no matter
how intricate (Turkish kids speak Turkish, don't they?), maybe some aspects
really take more time in some languages than in others. kindergarten
evidence suggests i took my sweet time in mastering ablaut patterns like
swim~swam~swum (apparently it's not _swimmed_).
then again, there may be common-sense reasons that the 1s masc./fem. divide
is so rare in the natlang world. how would a child learn that *she* is
supposed to use 1.SG.FEM? what if *she* is raised without sisters or a
mother or other female role models who say "1.SG.FEM" all the time? would
she have to figure out the whole male-vs.-female nature of the human race
before being able to refer to herself? "these people have deeper voices and
maybe beards and they say X. those people have longer hair and no beards
and higher voices and they say Y; i'm obviously one of them." would her
parents have to _tell_ her "no, you say Y when talking about yourself"? i
will actually use the _easier_ word and say that it seems *easier* to learn
how to refer to yourself when everyone around you is calling themself the
same pronoun.
thoughts on this?
Well, as an anime fan I can add that they sometimes make jokes when a girl
> uses a "boyish" 1p pronouns. For instance, Kanon TV2. The boy protagonist
> asks a girl protagonist why does she use "boku" to herself. So when she
> asks, what is she to say, he suggests saying "ore" which is even more
> boyish. So, for non-Japanese, the phrase
>
> "Ore-wa Tsukimiya Ayu"
>
> in the mouth of a *kawaii* girl is not that easy to get, but for a Japanese
> in is a really funny joke. And a boy would be regarded as a pervert if he
> uses "tashi" to himself, which is normal for girls.
>
nice, good call. that may be as close as we get.
matt
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 1 May 2012 14:29, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
> > so *nobody* knows of natlangs that have, say, multiple 1st-person
> > *pronouns*for multiple genders? i assume that would be confusing as
> > hell for children
> > to learn. doesn't japanese do something like this?
>
> I don't see as how it would be any *more* confusing than learning
> different gendered forms of predicate adjectives/participles in the
> first person, and children learn that just fine. Actually, it seems to
> me it wouldn't even be a significant addition to the problem of
> learning personal pronouns in general; one of my nephews for quite
> some time had figured out "you" to be his name, "I" and "he" to be
> generic third-person pronouns, and "she" to mean "mom". Since he
> managed to get "I" vs. "you" and "he" vs. "she" all figured out, I
> doubt I-masc. vs. I-fem. would've been more trouble.
>
> Others' responses about Thai, Tocharian, and Japanese do make me feel
> better about the natlanginess of Mev Pailom's first-person pronouns,
> though.
>
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:46 pm ((PDT))
On 1 May 2012 16:31, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> then again, there may be common-sense reasons that the 1s masc./fem. divide
> is so rare in the natlang world. how would a child learn that *she* is
> supposed to use 1.SG.FEM? what if *she* is raised without sisters or a
> mother or other female role models who say "1.SG.FEM" all the time? would
> she have to figure out the whole male-vs.-female nature of the human race
> before being able to refer to herself? "these people have deeper voices and
> maybe beards and they say X. those people have longer hair and no beards
> and higher voices and they say Y; i'm obviously one of them." would her
> parents have to _tell_ her "no, you say Y when talking about yourself"?
What about 3rd person gendered pronouns? By the time he started
speaking, my nephew had exactly 1 female human in his social sphere:
mom. Therefore, there was no data to allow the proper generalization
of "she", and thus he got it wrong. I don't see that as being any
different. If you posit a social situation in which the relevant
distinctions cannot be evidenced, then yeah, that little girl is gonna
get it wrong, until actively corrected or placed in an environment
that provides more data.
> i will actually use the _easier_ word and say that it seems *easier* to learn
> how to refer to yourself when everyone around you is calling themself the
> same pronoun.
>
> thoughts on this?
In a relative sense, I think it's kind of obvious that, yes, if your
pronouns make fewer distinctions, it will be easier to learn all of
them.
-l.
-l.
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 4:22 pm ((PDT))
On 5/1/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do this?
One of my sketchy artlangs marked gender pervasively on verbs and in
first and second person pronouns as well as third-person. Several
verbs had suppletive forms for different genders, too, e.g. "to
dance", "to speak" and some others.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 5:30 pm ((PDT))
> Actually, it seems to
> me it wouldn't even be a significant addition to the problem of
> learning personal pronouns in general; one of my nephews for quite
> some time had figured out "you" to be his name, "I" and "he" to be
> generic third-person pronouns, and "she" to mean "mom".
> -l.
>
Young non-native English learners also have that problem. When I was
teaching in Korea, one little girl used to say "help you! help you!" when
*she* wanted to be helped with something, probably because every time she
wanted help, we asked "do you need help?"
Then one day she switched to "help me". I wish I could remember that
moment more clearly.
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 7:05 pm ((PDT))
One of my languages had gender-specific first person pronouns. If I
remember correctly, they were _Å«_, _a_, and _u_, for masculine, feminine,
and neuter, respectively. The neuter was rather useful, surprisingly.
-Ian Spolarich
On 1 May 2012 20:30, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Actually, it seems to
> > me it wouldn't even be a significant addition to the problem of
> > learning personal pronouns in general; one of my nephews for quite
> > some time had figured out "you" to be his name, "I" and "he" to be
> > generic third-person pronouns, and "she" to mean "mom".
> > -l.
> >
>
> Young non-native English learners also have that problem. When I was
> teaching in Korea, one little girl used to say "help you! help you!" when
> *she* wanted to be helped with something, probably because every time she
> wanted help, we asked "do you need help?"
>
> Then one day she switched to "help me". I wish I could remember that
> moment more clearly.
>
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Krzysztof Mitko" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:15 pm ((PDT))
W dniu 01.05.2012 20:40, Casey Borders pisze:
> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
> have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently in
> the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
>
> I would say:
> Я ÑÑÑал /ya ustal/
>
> She would say:
> Я ÑÑÑала /ya ustala/
>
> I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way. Is
> this a common thing to do or not?
I think all slavic languages share this feature, in some of them it's
more than just first person, see Polish:
I (male) did: ZrobiÅem
I (female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
You (sg male) did: ZrobiÅeÅ
You (sg female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
He did: ZrobiÅ
She did: ZrobiÅa
It did: ZrobiÅo
We (all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅmy
We (all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅmy
You (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅcie
You (pl all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅcie
They (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅy
They (pl all male or mixed) did: Zrobili
But such distinction only works in past tense.
--
Z pozdrowieniami,
Krzysztof Mitko
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.7. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Krzysztof Mitko" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 12:37 am ((PDT))
> I (female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
Sorry, a typo: zrobiÅam.
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.8. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Njenfalgar" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 1:59 am ((PDT))
2012/5/2 Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]>
> then again, there may be common-sense reasons that the 1s masc./fem. divide
> is so rare in the natlang world. how would a child learn that *she* is
> supposed to use 1.SG.FEM? what if *she* is raised without sisters or a
> mother or other female role models who say "1.SG.FEM" all the time? would
> she have to figure out the whole male-vs.-female nature of the human race
> before being able to refer to herself? "these people have deeper voices and
> maybe beards and they say X. those people have longer hair and no beards
> and higher voices and they say Y; i'm obviously one of them." would her
> parents have to _tell_ her "no, you say Y when talking about yourself"? i
> will actually use the _easier_ word and say that it seems *easier* to learn
> how to refer to yourself when everyone around you is calling themself the
> same pronoun.
>
> thoughts on this?
>
Well, Vietnamese has several words (most of them are actually kinship
terms) that can be used as a first person singular pronoun, and which one
one must use depends among others on the gender of the speaker. The funny
this is that it also depends on age, and younger speakers will not
distinguish between genders. When it comes to _learning_ them, within the
family context the pronouns are symmetric, meaning that if you are
addressed with one certain form of "you", you will usually use exactly the
same word for your "I".
Greets,
David
--
Dos ony tãsnonnop, koták ony tãsnonnop.
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/ <http://njenfalgar.4shared.com/>
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.9. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:08 am ((PDT))
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Krzysztof Mitko <[email protected]> wrote:
> W dniu 01.05.2012 20:40, Casey Borders pisze:
> > My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
> > have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently
> in
> > the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
> >
> > I would say:
> > Я ÑÑÑал /ya ustal/
> >
> > She would say:
> > Я ÑÑÑала /ya ustala/
> >
> > I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way.
> Is
> > this a common thing to do or not?
>
> I think all slavic languages share this feature, in some of them it's
> more than just first person, see Polish:
>
> I (male) did: ZrobiÅem
> I (female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
> You (sg male) did: ZrobiÅeÅ
> You (sg female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
> He did: ZrobiÅ
> She did: ZrobiÅa
> It did: ZrobiÅo
> We (all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅmy
> We (all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅmy
> You (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅcie
> You (pl all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅcie
> They (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅy
> They (pl all male or mixed) did: Zrobili
>
> But such distinction only works in past tense.
>
> --
> Z pozdrowieniami,
> Krzysztof Mitko
>
I think that You also mix the reciprocal form here, so that
ZrobiÅem = * ZrobiÅ + me
ZrobiÅaÅ = *ZrobiÅa + se
ZrobiÅ = ZrobiÅ + [image: \varnothing]
etc.
In Russian you will have a similar picture,
Smeyals'a = Smeyal + sya[=sebya, self] - I (male) laughed
Smeyalas' = Smeyala + s' - I (female) laughed
Smeyalis' = Smeyali + s' - We laughted
It is more obviously presented in Polish, since Polish used different
reciprocal pronouns which became suffixes: not just -si, like in Russian.
Also, I'm not sure that the verb robiÄ does not have an irregular
conjugation paradigm, so that one has obligatory reciprocal suffixes in the
1st and 2nd peron, but not in third.
Kolya
Messages in this topic (29)
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2.10. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Krzysztof Mitko" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:49 am ((PDT))
W dniu 02.05.2012 11:08, Nikolay Ivankov pisze:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Krzysztof Mitko <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> W dniu 01.05.2012 20:40, Casey Borders pisze:
>>> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language and I
>>> have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated differently
>> in
>>> the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
>>>
>>> I would say:
>>> Я ÑÑÑал /ya ustal/
>>>
>>> She would say:
>>> Я ÑÑÑала /ya ustala/
>>>
>>> I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this way.
>> Is
>>> this a common thing to do or not?
>>
>> I think all slavic languages share this feature, in some of them it's
>> more than just first person, see Polish:
>>
>> I (male) did: ZrobiÅem
>> I (female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
>> You (sg male) did: ZrobiÅeÅ
>> You (sg female) did: ZrobiÅaÅ
>> He did: ZrobiÅ
>> She did: ZrobiÅa
>> It did: ZrobiÅo
>> We (all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅmy
>> We (all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅmy
>> You (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅyÅcie
>> You (pl all male or mixed) did: ZrobiliÅcie
>> They (pl all female) did: ZrobiÅy
>> They (pl all male or mixed) did: Zrobili
>>
>> But such distinction only works in past tense.
>>
>> --
>> Z pozdrowieniami,
>> Krzysztof Mitko
>>
>
> I think that You also mix the reciprocal form here, so that
> ZrobiÅem = * ZrobiÅ + me
> ZrobiÅaÅ = *ZrobiÅa + se
> ZrobiÅ = ZrobiÅ + [image: \varnothing]
> etc.
As I recollect it was from:
Ja żem zrobiÅ = zrobiÅem
Ty żeÅ zrobiÅa = zrobiÅaÅ
My żeÅmy zrobili = zrobiliÅmy
My żeÅmy zrobiÅy = zrobiÅyÅmy
but you won't see this "żem" form in modern Polish, except for archaic
or "redneck" stylizations.
Reciprocal pronoun is "siÄ" ("zrobiÅam siÄ")
> In Russian you will have a similar picture,
>
> Smeyals'a = Smeyal + sya[=sebya, self] - I (male) laughed
> Smeyalas' = Smeyala + s' - I (female) laughed
> Smeyalis' = Smeyali + s' - We laughted
>
> It is more obviously presented in Polish, since Polish used different
> reciprocal pronouns which became suffixes: not just -si, like in Russian.
> Also, I'm not sure that the verb robiÄ does not have an irregular
> conjugation paradigm, so that one has obligatory reciprocal suffixes in the
> 1st and 2nd peron, but not in third.
This is a regular, common conjugation.
--
Z pozdrowieniami,
Krzysztof Mitko
Messages in this topic (29)
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3a. Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Allison Nicol" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:32 pm ((PDT))
Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly new to
conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much more experienced people
could point me in the direction of some resources. I'm looking for any
webpages, papers, books, etc. that compare and contrast the way various
languages approach particular linguistic problems, but specifically, right now
I'm curious about how various languages create complement
phrases/complementizers. I'm trying to sort it out for my conlang and didn't
want to just copy English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase construction
without at least taking a look at how other languages do it.
If you can't think of anything that covers multiple languages, do you know of
any resources that at least discuss the way Middle Eastern languages handle
this, preferably easy enough to read for someone with little grounding in
Middle Eastern languages? Or can you provide any examples yourself that are
different from English's way of doing things?
That's kind of a weirdly specific request, I know, but I've tried doing
searching on my own to no avail and was hoping someone else might already have
found such a resource.
Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:46 pm ((PDT))
>
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly
> new to conlanging)
>
welcome!!
specifically, right now I'm curious about how various languages create
> complement phrases/complementizers
>
i will anticipate everyone else's response and suggest:
"Describing Morphosyntax" by Thomas E. Payne, p. 313
Middle Eastern languages
>
there are a lot of people reading this with 'grounding' in a lot of
languages. but there are a lot of Middle Eastern languages that are not
genetically related to each other, and therefore go about complementizing
in totally diverse ways with absolutely no correlation to geography. are
you talking a specific group of Middle Eastern languages? Arabic and Hebrew
(being Semitic languages) do complementizing in similar (and interesting!)
ways, but are very different in going about this than, say, Persian and
Kurdish and Pashto, which are Indo-European (though maybe you don't
consider Iran or Turkey or Afghanistan to be in the Middle East). narrow
down your question and i guarantee you a wealth of support.
cheers and good luck,
matt
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Allison Nicol <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly
> new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much more experienced
> people could point me in the direction of some resources. I'm looking for
> any webpages, papers, books, etc. that compare and contrast the way various
> languages approach particular linguistic problems, but specifically, right
> now I'm curious about how various languages create complement
> phrases/complementizers. I'm trying to sort it out for my conlang and
> didn't want to just copy English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase
> construction without at least taking a look at how other languages do it.
>
> If you can't think of anything that covers multiple languages, do you know
> of any resources that at least discuss the way Middle Eastern languages
> handle this, preferably easy enough to read for someone with little
> grounding in Middle Eastern languages? Or can you provide any examples
> yourself that are different from English's way of doing things?
>
> That's kind of a weirdly specific request, I know, but I've tried doing
> searching on my own to no avail and was hoping someone else might already
> have found such a resource.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:48 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Matthew Boutilier
<[email protected]> wrote:
> i will anticipate everyone else's response and suggest:
> "Describing Morphosyntax" by Thomas E. Payne, p. 313
:)
WALS (World Atlas of Language Structures) has all sorts of good
information in summary form on a range of topics:
http://wals.info/feature
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 3:49 pm ((PDT))
Hi!
Sorry I can't give any examples from Middle Eastern languages or anything,
but I can give an example from Mandarin Chinese, which I've been studying
for about 4 years. Basically, Chinese uses a particle, "de," which
indicates the modification of a noun by a phrase/adjective/etc.
So "the book that I write in" could be translated as:
Wo xie de shu.
I write GEN. book
Also, we had a thread that might relate to this recently:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/message/187929
Zach
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:22 PM, Allison Nicol <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly
> new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much more experienced
> people could point me in the direction of some resources. I'm looking for
> any webpages, papers, books, etc. that compare and contrast the way various
> languages approach particular linguistic problems, but specifically, right
> now I'm curious about how various languages create complement
> phrases/complementizers. I'm trying to sort it out for my conlang and
> didn't want to just copy English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase
> construction without at least taking a look at how other languages do it.
>
> If you can't think of anything that covers multiple languages, do you know
> of any resources that at least discuss the way Middle Eastern languages
> handle this, preferably easy enough to read for someone with little
> grounding in Middle Eastern languages? Or can you provide any examples
> yourself that are different from English's way of doing things?
>
> That's kind of a weirdly specific request, I know, but I've tried doing
> searching on my own to no avail and was hoping someone else might already
> have found such a resource.
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalà 'a!
Messages in this topic (7)
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3e. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 4:40 pm ((PDT))
>
> there are a lot of people reading this with 'grounding' in a lot of
> languages. but there are a lot of Middle Eastern languages that are not
> genetically related to each other, and therefore go about complementizing
> in totally diverse ways with absolutely no correlation to geography. are
> you talking a specific group of Middle Eastern languages? Arabic and Hebrew
> (being Semitic languages) do complementizing in similar (and interesting!)
> ways, but are very different in going about this than, say, Persian and
> Kurdish and Pashto, which are Indo-European (though maybe you don't
> consider Iran or Turkey or Afghanistan to be in the Middle East). narrow
> down your question and i guarantee you a wealth of support.
I was thinking mostly of Semitic languages, but Iranian languages would be
interesting as well, for variety's sake. The basic idea I have is that this
conlang is in an AU and was influenced in aspects of its construction by
languages in the Middle Eastern area (it's vague where exactly this
influencing happened, so anywhere from Turkey to Afghanistan down to Saudi
Arabia is fair game!).
Also, we had a thread that might relate to this recently:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/message/187929
Thanks a lot! That looks really helpful.
Messages in this topic (7)
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3f. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 5:40 pm ((PDT))
Welcome, Allison!
Wm Annis already directed you to WALS (World Atlas of Language Structure).
For your specific question, see this link: http://wals.info/chapter/90
Also, I invite you to put your language on CALS (Conlang Atlas of Language
Structure). Posting my language Angosey on this website really helped me
sit back and think about how my grammar works as well as helped me fill in
some holes.
http://cals.conlang.org/
The list is a great place for asking weird questions, don't worry. It's a
great resource.
Danny
2012/5/1 Allison Nicol <[email protected]>
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly
> new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much more experienced
> people could point me in the direction of some resources. I'm looking for
> any webpages, papers, books, etc. that compare and contrast the way various
> languages approach particular linguistic problems, but specifically, right
> now I'm curious about how various languages create complement
> phrases/complementizers. I'm trying to sort it out for my conlang and
> didn't want to just copy English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase
> construction without at least taking a look at how other languages do it.
>
> If you can't think of anything that covers multiple languages, do you know
> of any resources that at least discuss the way Middle Eastern languages
> handle this, preferably easy enough to read for someone with little
> grounding in Middle Eastern languages? Or can you provide any examples
> yourself that are different from English's way of doing things?
>
> That's kind of a weirdly specific request, I know, but I've tried doing
> searching on my own to no avail and was hoping someone else might already
> have found such a resource.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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3g. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:47 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 06:22:22PM -0400, Allison Nicol wrote:
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also fairly
> new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much more experienced
> people could point me in the direction of some resources. I'm looking
> for any webpages, papers, books, etc. that compare and contrast the way
> various languages approach particular linguistic problems, but specifically,
> right now I'm curious about how various languages create complement
> phrases/complementizers.
I think this was the book I was reading snippets from online when I was
trying to design complementation for mirexu:
Complementation
Robert M. W. Dixon, Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald
http://books.google.com/books?id=r4a7kCH4oFAC
It was one of the books called "Complementation" on Google Books -
there are several!
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 7:02 pm ((PDT))
Hello all,
While on that flight I mentioned earlier, I completed a table of verb
endings for the first conjugation of verbs in a new, as yet unnamed
language. In total, it has 252 endings, but the imperative shouldn't really
be counted and most endings are slight variations on others. It's actually
quite a lovely chart...
Anyway, the language has moods with their own inflections, and one of those
moods is the dubitative. At the time of language-creation, I used it for a
sentence about skies clearing. But in reviewing the chart, I am beginning
to question its usefulness--and even the probability of such a mood
occurring. Why would a language have a mood for doubting, but not moods for
all of the other things, such as wishing, thinking, usw. Currently, the
language has indicative, subjunctive, dubitative, conditional, jussive,
imperative, and interrogative moods.
Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible? And is there any way to use
the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
store on Monday" sort of thing?
-Ian Spolarich
Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 7:31 pm ((PDT))
My ficlang Aerest has a dubitative, but that's mostly a function of
creating the most complex baroque verb system I could for a story (this was
before I studied ancient Greek -- I might have to make it even worse, now
that I know how bad a a verb system can be). In Aerest, there's a
subjunctive, an optative, a negative, a dubitative, interrogative, and
jussive. Almost none of them get any use, because I don't find complexity
particular attractive in conlangs -- or didnt' at the time -- and so didn't
really get into using the language after I finished the draft of the novel.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> While on that flight I mentioned earlier, I completed a table of verb
> endings for the first conjugation of verbs in a new, as yet unnamed
> language. In total, it has 252 endings, but the imperative shouldn't really
> be counted and most endings are slight variations on others. It's actually
> quite a lovely chart...
>
> Anyway, the language has moods with their own inflections, and one of those
> moods is the dubitative. At the time of language-creation, I used it for a
> sentence about skies clearing. But in reviewing the chart, I am beginning
> to question its usefulness--and even the probability of such a mood
> occurring. Why would a language have a mood for doubting, but not moods for
> all of the other things, such as wishing, thinking, usw. Currently, the
> language has indicative, subjunctive, dubitative, conditional, jussive,
> imperative, and interrogative moods.
>
> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible? And is there any way to use
> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
> store on Monday" sort of thing?
>
> -Ian Spolarich
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 7:37 pm ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 5/1/12, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Why would a language have a mood for doubting, but not moods for
> all of the other things, such as wishing, thinking, usw.
Perhaps the speakers found it useful to distinguish surety from doubt. It's
kind of like the old past subjunctive = irrealis. Perhaps this dubitative
is simply part of that continuum from indicative = known fact to
dubitative = unsure of factuality to irrealis = known contrary to fact.
Perhaps they can express wishes in terms of likelihood to happen. In stead
of "I wish we would go out to eat", they could say "I hope we'll stay
in-DUB to eat tonight..."
> Currently, the language has indicative, subjunctive, dubitative,
> conditional, jussive, imperative, and interrogative moods.
>
> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible? And is there
> any way to use
> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she
> will go to the store on Monday" sort of thing?
Perhaps it could take on some of the usual subjunctive load. Irrealis or
something.
Padraic
> -Ian Spolarich
Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 7:40 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> My ficlang Aerest has a dubitative, but that's mostly a function of
> creating the most complex baroque verb system I could for a story (this was
> before I studied ancient Greek -- I might have to make it even worse, now
> that I know how bad a a verb system can be).
Oh, no, you don't. As an unreconstructed lover of the ancient Greek
language I must tell you that it is a walk in the park compared to Old
Irish or Navajo. It's practically Esperantic. ;)
http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/cls/f2000n2/mcdonough.pdf
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (6)
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4e. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:26 am ((PDT))
Nauspayr has 20 moods, many of which are used for evidence and politeness. The
dubitative falls on the evidence scale, "I doubt it's raining" versus something
like the energetic mood "I'm sure it's raining" (kinda). The politeness moods
control how requests are made "May I have a biscuit", "I plead to have a
biscuit", "I want a biscuit", etc.
With this, Nauspayr gets away with having no auxiliary verbs at all: for me
it's really an entirely different way of thinking, having the head of a phrase
always the semantic core "rain" rather than "doubt".
And, yes, I've used all of them :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 2 May 2012, at 03:39, Wm Annis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My ficlang Aerest has a dubitative, but that's mostly a function of
>> creating the most complex baroque verb system I could for a story (this was
>> before I studied ancient Greek -- I might have to make it even worse, now
>> that I know how bad a a verb system can be).
>
> Oh, no, you don't. As an unreconstructed lover of the ancient Greek
> language I must tell you that it is a walk in the park compared to Old
> Irish or Navajo. It's practically Esperantic. ;)
>
> http://www.bcs.rochester.edu/cls/f2000n2/mcdonough.pdf
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org ⢠www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (6)
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4f. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 4:45 am ((PDT))
Remember that any time you are working with moods, the usage can be a
little fuzzy. Certainly a dubiative will have a core meaning expressing
doubt (otherwise you should use another label), but it can easily gain
other syntactic or pragmatic uses. In fact, pragmatics seem to be most fun
-- maybe, for example, you could co-opt the dubiative to express criticism,
rather like saying "I doubt he will stop smoking anytime soon." to express
your annoyance at someone's smoking habit.
Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Indexed Predicates Sketch
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 1, 2012 11:33 pm ((PDT))
Apr20 Adverbs ....
The following adverbs require proximity to the predicate modified, even though
it's not very satisfactory.
Adverbs of duration are marked using the predicate DUR. The P-arg gives the
index to the quantity and units of duration. As DUR is adverbial, the S-arg is
null; however, it can be used when an action nominalization is modified.
three-k day-k PUk-DUR b-walk-1P.
"We walked for 3 days."
three-k day-k PUk-DUR-j 1P-walk-PIA-j.
"our 3 day walk"
Adverbs of manner are marked by applying the suffix -MAN to the predicate.
John-i house-j Dj-b-leave-Di angry-MAN.
"John left the house angrily."
Note that this contrasts with the depictive:
John-i house-j Dj-b-leave-Di angry-Di.
"John left the house angry."
MAN is also used as a quasi-predicate with null S-arg:
Q-MAN "how"
S-MAN "in such a manner"
U-MAN "somehow"
I'm holding off on adverbs specifying # occasions, which might work like DUR
but might be a part of the tense system. Are there any kinds of adverbs that
I've missed?
Messages in this topic (20)
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