There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: BPJ
1b. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Larry Sulky
1c. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Jesse Bangs
1d. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Douglas Koller
1e. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Peter Cyrus
1f. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Eugene Oh
1g. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Peter Cyrus
1h. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
From: Puey McCleary
2a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: And Rosta
2b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Sam Stutter
2c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: And Rosta
2d. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: BPJ
2e. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: R A Brown
2f. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: R A Brown
2g. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: BPJ
3.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Puey McCleary
3.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Casey Borders
3.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Adam Walker
3.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: George Corley
3.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Nikolay Ivankov
4a. TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Daniel Bowman
4b. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Daniel Bowman
4c. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Zach Wellstood
4d. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Puey McCleary
4e. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Sam Stutter
Messages
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1a. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 10:22 am ((PDT))
On 2012-05-02 04:02, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible?
Sure. There are natlangs which have such a mood.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubitative_mood>
> And is there any way to use
> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
> store on Monday" sort of thing?
As you can see from the translations of the Ojibwe
example on th WP page it is not used (only) to say
"It's doubtful that..." but generally when you are
in doubt about the truth value of what you are saying.
It would cover "I'm not sure but I hope/wish/think/expect...".
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood#Dubitative>
gives another illustrative example where "He's in California
today" + DUB is translated as "I guess he'll be in CA today",
i.e. anything hypothetical is morphologically dubitative.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (14)
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1b. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 10:25 am ((PDT))
On 2012-05-02 04:02, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible?
Aw, jeez.... I don't know.... I'm thinking maybe not....
Messages in this topic (14)
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1c. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Jesse Bangs" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 10:59 am ((PDT))
>
> And is there any way to use
>> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
>> store on Monday" sort of thing?
>>
>
> As you can see from the translations of the Ojibwe
> example on th WP page it is not used (only) to say
> "It's doubtful that..." but generally when you are
> in doubt about the truth value of what you are saying.
> It would cover "I'm not sure but I hope/wish/think/expect...".
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Irrealis_mood#Dubitative<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood#Dubitative>
> >
> gives another illustrative example where "He's in California
> today" + DUB is translated as "I guess he'll be in CA today",
> i.e. anything hypothetical is morphologically dubitative.
In Yivrian, the dubitative exists as part of a three way contrast between
affirmative, negative, and dubitative. As such, I usually translate it with
an adverb such as "perhaps" or "maybe". This is somewhat different from the
way the mood is typically translated in Ojibwe and other natlangs, but it
still seems to be well within the rounds of natlang credibility.
--
JS Bangs
[email protected]
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of
Alexandria
Messages in this topic (14)
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1d. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 11:15 am ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:37:30 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
> To: [email protected]
> --- On Tue, 5/1/12, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why would a language have a mood for doubting, but not moods for
> > all of the other things, such as wishing, thinking, usw.
> Perhaps the speakers found it useful to distinguish surety from doubt. It's
> kind of like the old past subjunctive = irrealis. Perhaps this dubitative
> is simply part of that continuum from indicative = known fact to
> dubitative = unsure of factuality to irrealis = known contrary to fact.
> Perhaps they can express wishes in terms of likelihood to happen. In stead
> of "I wish we would go out to eat", they could say "I hope we'll stay
> in-DUB to eat tonight..."
> > Currently, the language has indicative, subjunctive, dubitative,
> > conditional, jussive, imperative, and interrogative moods.
> >
> > Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible? And is there
> > any way to use
> > the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she
> > will go to the store on Monday" sort of thing?
> Perhaps it could take on some of the usual subjunctive load. Irrealis or
> something.
> Padraic
Géarthnuns' speculative mood is used in the protasis, and in subordinate
clauses à la Romance after verbs of wishing, doubting, and opining along the
degree of certainty continuum. Left to its own devices in the main clause, it
becomes may/might-ish. Aa Padraic suggests, you could certainly use it to take
on other functions in subjunctiveland, or you could put your subjunctive space
on steroids and divvy it up even further to have separate moods for wishing,
thinking, usw. They don't necessarily have to be wildly different from one
another, may be
Messages in this topic (14)
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1e. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 12:13 pm ((PDT))
According to what I've read, the Andean language Aymará has three-valued
modal logic, with 27 (3 cubed) adverbial moods, essentially. In Aymará,
it's possible to express doubt about the negation of a sentence but no
doubt about its affirmation, or vice versa. In other words, you could say
that "she will go to the store tomorrow" is definitely possible and might
even be true, but it's certainly not false.
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2012-05-02 04:02, Ian Spolarich wrote:
>
>> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible?
>>
>
> Sure. There are natlangs which have such a mood.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Dubitative_mood<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubitative_mood>
> >
>
> And is there any way to use
>> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
>> store on Monday" sort of thing?
>>
>
> As you can see from the translations of the Ojibwe
> example on th WP page it is not used (only) to say
> "It's doubtful that..." but generally when you are
> in doubt about the truth value of what you are saying.
> It would cover "I'm not sure but I hope/wish/think/expect...".
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Irrealis_mood#Dubitative<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood#Dubitative>
> >
> gives another illustrative example where "He's in California
> today" + DUB is translated as "I guess he'll be in CA today",
> i.e. anything hypothetical is morphologically dubitative.
>
> /bpj
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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1f. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 12:50 pm ((PDT))
How does that work, exactly? She either goes or doesn't go. And she either
definitely goes or might/might not go. I'm curious how the combination of three
dualities works.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
2 May 2012, ÈW 20:13, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]> ÈcÈUÈeÈ^ÈgÈUÈa(ÈU):
> According to what I've read, the Andean language Aymarh has three-valued
> modal logic, with 27 (3 cubed) adverbial moods, essentially. In Aymarh,
> it's possible to express doubt about the negation of a sentence but no
> doubt about its affirmation, or vice versa. In other words, you could say
> that "she will go to the store tomorrow" is definitely possible and might
> even be true, but it's certainly not false.
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-05-02 04:02, Ian Spolarich wrote:
>>
>>> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible?
>>>
>>
>> Sure. There are natlangs which have such a mood.
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Dubitative_mood<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubitative_mood>
>>>
>>
>> And is there any way to use
>>> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to the
>>> store on Monday" sort of thing?
>>>
>>
>> As you can see from the translations of the Ojibwe
>> example on th WP page it is not used (only) to say
>> "It's doubtful that..." but generally when you are
>> in doubt about the truth value of what you are saying.
>> It would cover "I'm not sure but I hope/wish/think/expect...".
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Irrealis_mood#Dubitative<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood#Dubitative>
>>>
>> gives another illustrative example where "He's in California
>> today" + DUB is translated as "I guess he'll be in CA today",
>> i.e. anything hypothetical is morphologically dubitative.
>>
>> /bpj
>>
Messages in this topic (14)
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1g. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 1:04 pm ((PDT))
Yes, at first the literature said that Aymará was completely trivalent, so
there would be a third alternative to going or not going. We have plenty
of those in real life, which we explain at different levels, such as "The
King of France is Japanese" or Bill Clinton's "I didn't have sex with that
woman". In most situations, there's a border condition which is neither,
or a presupposition which, if not satisfied, makes either alternative
impossible,
But I think it's only in modal logic that Aymará is trivalent.
Aristotelian (2-valued) logic has Certain, Impossible (=certainly not) and
Possible (=possibly not), but trivalent logic applies that trio to each of
itself, kind of "squaring" it. So they apparently have an adverb which
means that a proposition is certainly-not true, but possibly false and
possibly unknown (or not yet happened), and so on.
Here's a link: http://aymara.org/biblio/html/igr/igr.html
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Eugene Oh <[email protected]> wrote:
> How does that work, exactly? She either goes or doesn't go. And she either
> definitely goes or might/might not go. I'm curious how the combination of
> three dualities works.
>
> Eugene
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> 2 May 2012, в 20:13, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]> напиÑал(а):
>
> > According to what I've read, the Andean language Aymará has three-valued
> > modal logic, with 27 (3 cubed) adverbial moods, essentially. In Aymará,
> > it's possible to express doubt about the negation of a sentence but no
> > doubt about its affirmation, or vice versa. In other words, you could
> say
> > that "she will go to the store tomorrow" is definitely possible and might
> > even be true, but it's certainly not false.
> >
> > On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2012-05-02 04:02, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> >>
> >>> Basically, what I'm asking is, is it plausible?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Sure. There are natlangs which have such a mood.
> >>
> >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Dubitative_mood<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubitative_mood>
> >>>
> >>
> >> And is there any way to use
> >>> the dubitative for more than just "It's doubtful that she will go to
> the
> >>> store on Monday" sort of thing?
> >>>
> >>
> >> As you can see from the translations of the Ojibwe
> >> example on th WP page it is not used (only) to say
> >> "It's doubtful that..." but generally when you are
> >> in doubt about the truth value of what you are saying.
> >> It would cover "I'm not sure but I hope/wish/think/expect...".
> >>
> >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Irrealis_mood#Dubitative<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood#Dubitative>
> >>>
> >> gives another illustrative example where "He's in California
> >> today" + DUB is translated as "I guess he'll be in CA today",
> >> i.e. anything hypothetical is morphologically dubitative.
> >>
> >> /bpj
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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1h. Re: Dubitative Mood--Useful?
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:29 pm ((PDT))
Well, in considering whether ones language should have a dubitative mood
and, if so, what the dubitative moods function should be, I think, like
any other creative endeavour, one should examine the purpose and audience
of this language.
For instance, if this language is meant for ones journal writing, perhaps
it should be kept very simple so that one doesnt have to consult the chart
all the time. The seven moods that have been provided, then, would probably
most naturally be used for their most canonical of functions.
To use English as a short hand:
Indicative: Alice drinks the tea.
Subjunctive: Alice would drink the tea
Dubitative: Alice perhaps may drink the tea.
Conditional: If Alice drinks the tea
Jussive: May Alice drink the tea!
Imperative: Alice, drink the tea!
Interrogative: Does Alice drink the tea?
You get the idea.
If the language is intended for use by a fictious culture, then one can
actually use the dubitative mood (or any other element of that language) as
a way to illustrate that culture. This could even be a
useful story telling element if one wants to write fiction about this
culture.
So, if this language is spoken by matriarchal Space Jellyfish, perhaps
males use the dubitative mood when talking to their mothers or
grandmothers, but they use the indicative among themselves.
If this language is spoken by dwarves with a rigid class system, perhaps
little dwarflings use the dubitative mood when talking to their parents.
If this is a world where Dragon never lie, then perhaps Dragons use this
mood when talking to humans. But if, in this world, Unicorns always lie,
perhaps humans use the dubitative mood when addressing them.
Theres really no limit to the possibilities.
If, however, this language is meant to be a very naturalistic one of our
world, with its own proto-history, then I think there have been some very
good suggestions on what one can do with it.
Ill try to offer just a few suggestions off the side of my head and
borrowing from whats been written before on this list.
Perhaps the dubitative mood:
1 Is used with negative purpose closes (so as not, lest) "lest Alice
drink the tea."
Actually, the dubitative could be used for all types of negative things.
Perhaps all negative utterances.
2 Is used with indirect statements I heard that "Alice drinks the tea."
3 Contrary to fact clauses If Alice went to Wonderland, "she would have
drunk the tea."
4 Perhaps the future indicative is used for future with intention, and
the dubitative for future without intention. "Alice intends to drink the
tea" vs "Alice will drink the tea." Or the dubitative has to be used when
theres an adverb that clearly marks the clause as future tense such as
"tomorrow."
5 These moods have sprung from each other and merged in interesting ways.
The dubitative is the original subjunctive mood, and the subjunctive mood
only has a present tense. So the dubitative is used for all functions that
the past subjunctive mood should have had.
6 Some verbs can only be conjugated in certain moods. The dubitative mood
functions as the indicative for verbs meaning "doubt," "suppose,"
"consider" and the like. However, the dubitative only has two tenses whilst
the indicative has three tenses, so theres no formal future tense.
Tense wackiness ensues.
7 Some verbs change their meaning in different moods. Indicative "infer"
becomes dubitative "imply." Indicative "see" becomes dubitative "seem."
Dubitative "want" becomes indicative "want (in excess)."
Some verbs may only have stems for the dubitative, some only for the
subjunctive.
Just a few ideas.
Personally I just like saying "dubitative" mood. Doo-bee doo-bee doo-bee
do! What fun!
Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 11:10 am ((PDT))
Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
> I've always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs:
>
> Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu
> mekasyal.
>
> "The forest is located dispersed beneath the moon's light. I am located at
> home at the forest dispersed beneath the stars' light."
>
> Where the verb "ga" (geluk, gejek) is "to be located", "ybek" is
> disseminative and "dichuk" is chezative.
At first glance I thought chezative and disseminative involved some sort of
jest about cheese, semen and, well, I had better not spell it out further.
Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and _disseminative_?
IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat _erga_, subsequently
reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
_dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.
Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term _andative_ comes
from? I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency to end up with a
Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping
towards what, if reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or
does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)? (Respectable
credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to consent to use _andative_.)
--And.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 11:16 am ((PDT))
On 2 May 2012, at 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
> Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
>> I've always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs:
>>
>> Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu
>> mekasyal.
>>
>> "The forest is located dispersed beneath the moon's light. I am located at
>> home at the forest dispersed beneath the stars' light."
>>
>> Where the verb "ga" (geluk, gejek) is "to be located", "ybek" is
>> disseminative and "dichuk" is chezative.
>
> At first glance I thought chezative and disseminative involved some sort of
> jest about cheese, semen and, well, I had better not spell it out further.
>
> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and
> _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat
> _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will tentatively suggest
> _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
> A, et al.
I did steal the terms from a (probably rather old) linguistics textbook. Then
again, I've never quite been happy with them myself.
>
> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term _andative_ comes
> from? I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency to end up with
> a Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping
> towards what, if reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or
> does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)? (Respectable
> credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to consent to use
> _andative_.)
>
> --And.
Andative? I would have thought it was named after you? :)
Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 11:31 am ((PDT))
Sam Stutter, On 02/05/2012 19:16:
> On 2 May 2012, at 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and
>> _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative',
>> from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will
>> tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with
>> deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.
>
> I did steal the terms from a (probably rather old) linguistics
> textbook. Then again, I've never quite been happy with them myself.
I see _chezative_ does come up with two hits on Google Books & Scholar.
>> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
>> _andative_ comes from? I mean, by what process did it gain
>> sufficient currency to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it?
>> Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if
>> reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or does
>> it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)?
>> (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to
>> consent to use _andative_.)
>>
>> --And.
>
> Andative? I would have thought it was named after you? :)
Ho ho, perhaps then I must forgive it. Attempting to answer my own question, I
find that _andative_ dates back to at least 1925 in linguistics scholarship
(with no indication of it being newly coined then): J. de Angulo and L. S.
Freeland 1925 The Chontal Language. (Dialect of Tequixistlan) Anthropos
1032-1052. But why _andative_ and not _itive_? I am perplexed.
--And.
Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 1:40 pm ((PDT))
On 2012-05-02 20:09, And Rosta wrote:
> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and
> _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative',
> from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will
> tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with
> deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.
There are two problems here: (1) In real Latin _-ivus_ only
attaches to the supine stem of verbs. This is usually skirted
by way of compounds with _-essive_ 'of being at' and _-lative_
'of bringing to', so perhaps "domiessive" < _domi_ 'at home'?
Doesn't feel quite right though. Perhaps simply "casal" since
_chez_ < CASA, which meant 'hut' in aristocratic Latin but
'house' in popular Latin. One sorely wants to turn to Greek...
(2) _dispers-_ is already the supine stem of _dispergo_, like
so many Latinate verbs in English _disperse_ is a back-formation
from the action noun (_dispersio(n)_), so the form would be
"dispersive".
Deference in advance to RAB whom I expect to shred my 22:40 P.M.
reasoning into pieces! :-)
/bpj
Messages in this topic (9)
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2e. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 1:59 pm ((PDT))
On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
> Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
[snip
>
> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
> and _disseminative_?
_disseminative_ is well-formed.
> IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat
> _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-.
Yep - used in the earlier sense by Sidney Ray, Johannes &
Alfredo Trombetti according to Larry Trask. But when
reinterpreted as a Graeco-Latin hybrid it acquired a new
meaning which we use today.
> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
> A, et al.
_dispersive_ is better.
There is no verb *domiciliare; in any case _domiciliative_
is a bit of a mouthful.
The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
_apudessive_ ;)
> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
> _andative_ comes from?
..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
Besides those _domiciliative_ looks more than reasonable.
Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
> I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency
> to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it
> merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if
> reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_?
>
I guess the the guy who wrote the Wikipedia page is keen on
them ;)
> or does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what
> are they)? (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered
> if I'm ever going to consent to use _andative_.)
Quite right - and I'm dubious about the respectable
credentials.
The alternatives given on that page, namely, _itive_ and
_ventive_, or _translocative_ and _cislocative_ are IMO much
more preferable.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (9)
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2f. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 10:44 pm ((PDT))
On 02/05/2012 21:40, BPJ wrote:
[snip]
>
> There are two problems here: (1) In real Latin _-ivus_
> only attaches to the supine stem of verbs.
Correct.
> This is usually skirted by way of compounds with
> _-essive_ 'of being at' and _-lative_ 'of bringing to',
Also correct - tho -lative is of course an example of -ive
attached to a supine stem ;)
> so perhaps "domiessive" < _domi_ 'at home'? Doesn't feel
> quite right though.
It doesn't, does it? Last evening I suggested _apudessive_
from Latin _apud_ = "at the house of." On searching on
Google, I find that the term has already been coined ;)
> Perhaps simply "casal" since _chez_ < CASA, which meant
> 'hut' in aristocratic Latin but 'house' in popular Latin.
> One sorely wants to turn to Greek... (2)
Sort of like _ergative_, you mean? Presumably from
á¼ÏγαÏικÏÏ (ergatikós) "able to work, productive,
industrious", substituting the Latinate -ive, for for the
Greek =ic (-ikos).
Not sure that Greek would help here; a comparable formation,
I guess, would take οἰκηÏικÏÏ (oikÄtikós), which would be
Latinized as _oeceticus_, as its base and give us the
_oecetive_ case. I think I prefer _apudessive_.
> _dispers-_ is already the supine stem of _dispergo_, like
> so many Latinate verbs in English _disperse_ is a
> back-formation from the action noun (_dispersio(n)_), so
> the form would be "dispersive".
Exactly!
> Deference in advance to RAB whom I expect to shred my
> 22:40 P.M. reasoning into pieces! :-)
Sorry - I've agreed with you on at least three points :-)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 11:48 pm ((PDT))
(Sorry for the narrow column. I wasn't wearing my glasses...)
On 2012-05-02 22:59, R A Brown wrote:
> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
> _apudessive_ ;)
<slaps self in head>
"Apudessive case" even has a stub on WP!
I see now that 'at the house of' is indeed
among the meanings of _apud_ according to my
Latin-English dictionary, while the Latin-Swedish
one only gives "hos", which is etymologically
derived from _hus_ 'house' similarly to what
happened to CASA in French, but has had its
meaning weakened to 'at (someones home, shop,
institution, place in general), "in" an author'.
The Latin-English dictionary also lists the
the meaning 'with', which is the meaning which
survived in Gallo-Latin, only to be replaced
by _chez_ which had apparently gone trough
the very same semantic drift -- if 'at the
house of' was indeed the main meaning of
_apud_ in older Latin, although my dictionary
lists 'beside, by, with' before 'at the house
of'. It also lists an alternative spelling
_aput_ which looks like a hypercorrection to me.
(The reason I'm thinking so much about this
word is because I'm wavering as to what its
reflex should be in my (Gallo-)Romlang Rhodrese.
I'm not particularly keen on having it merge
with AURUM or, worse, AUT, which it regularly
would.)
/bpj
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:02 pm ((PDT))
Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second person
pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English when
translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase? Do
you just try to use context?
This question, of course, is similar to when one should bother literally
translating inclusive or exclusive "we" or even singular or plural "you"
for that matter.
Khlìjha can distinguish gender in the pronouns, but usually, in the first
person singular I dont bother translating unless theres a clear contrast
in the sentences.
Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhe.
We women drink the tea.
We women drink the tea (as opposed to you men).
We drink the tea.
Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhing.
I, a lady, drink the tea.
I drink the tea.
(Princess Alixhlìnye ends up using the feminine first person pronoun quite
a bit. Such pronouns almost sound endearing).
Gendered second person pronouns seem a bit less awkward in English.
Qthewayájhei jhatiyùtya texhing?
Did you drink of the tea, maid?
Did you drink of the tea, miss?
Did you drink of the tea?
Actually, gendered second person pronouns come in handy in some situations.
For instance, at a tea party with three male creatures and one female,
using the feminine pronoun very clearly draws a contrast.
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
3.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:24 pm ((PDT))
I'm still working it through but my plan is to just drop the gender when
translating into English since it wouldn't exist in English anyway.
*
*
*Casey Borders*
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]>wrote:
> Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second person
> pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English when
> translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase? Do
> you just try to use context?
>
> This question, of course, is similar to when one should bother literally
> translating inclusive or exclusive "we" or even singular or plural "you"
> for that matter.
>
> Khlìjha can distinguish gender in the pronouns, but usually, in the first
> person singular I dont bother translating unless theres a clear contrast
> in the sentences.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhe.
>
> We women drink the tea.
>
> We women drink the tea (as opposed to you men).
>
> We drink the tea.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhing.
>
> I, a lady, drink the tea.
>
> I drink the tea.
>
> (Princess Alixhlìnye ends up using the feminine first person pronoun quite
> a bit. Such pronouns almost sound endearing).
>
> Gendered second person pronouns seem a bit less awkward in English.
>
> Qthewayájhei jhatiyùtya texhing?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, maid?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, miss?
>
> Did you drink of the tea?
>
> Actually, gendered second person pronouns come in handy in some situations.
> For instance, at a tea party with three male creatures and one female,
> using the feminine pronoun very clearly draws a contrast.
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
3.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:41 pm ((PDT))
well, Lrahran has a three-way distinction
masculine/feminine/unspecified-mixed-neuter-whathaveyou for all four
persons so there is masucline-I, feminie-I and
unspeciifed/noneofyourbusiness-I. I don't normally bother with translating
the differences into English.
Adam
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]>wrote:
> Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second person
> pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English when
> translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase? Do
> you just try to use context?
>
> This question, of course, is similar to when one should bother literally
> translating inclusive or exclusive "we" or even singular or plural "you"
> for that matter.
>
> Khlìjha can distinguish gender in the pronouns, but usually, in the first
> person singular I dont bother translating unless theres a clear contrast
> in the sentences.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhe.
>
> We women drink the tea.
>
> We women drink the tea (as opposed to you men).
>
> We drink the tea.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhing.
>
> I, a lady, drink the tea.
>
> I drink the tea.
>
> (Princess Alixhlìnye ends up using the feminine first person pronoun quite
> a bit. Such pronouns almost sound endearing).
>
> Gendered second person pronouns seem a bit less awkward in English.
>
> Qthewayájhei jhatiyùtya texhing?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, maid?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, miss?
>
> Did you drink of the tea?
>
> Actually, gendered second person pronouns come in handy in some situations.
> For instance, at a tea party with three male creatures and one female,
> using the feminine pronoun very clearly draws a contrast.
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
3.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 2:41 pm ((PDT))
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second
> person
> > pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English
> when
> > translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase?
> Do
> > you just try to use context?
>
How relevant is the gender of the referent to the discourse. I see no
reason to refer to gender if the reader knows it by context. Probably more
important is avoiding using certain instincts in one's native language when
speaking in the conlang (or a foreign natlang, in fact). I once gave a
speech in Chinese class about a friend, and went the entire speech without
mentioning that she was a girl (Mandarin Chinese has a single third-person
pronoun _ta1_, which is written differently for different genders, but
clearly all the same word in the spoken language).
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
3.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:09 am ((PDT))
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]>wrote:
> Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second person
> pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English when
> translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase? Do
> you just try to use context?
>
Never had problems with ignoring the gender, neither have I seen that any
other students in school or university having them. For Russian people that
I know, it was hard with the word order (which is to be strictified), the
copula (which is in many cases absent), the articles and the prepositions
(especially those ones that are normally ruled out by the case marking).
So, in the case of the absent preposition, people just do not use the
needed one, but the English word does not obtain any Russian-sounding case
or whatever. Same with gender marking for the verb.
> This question, of course, is similar to when one should bother literally
> translating inclusive or exclusive "we" or even singular or plural "you"
> for that matter.
>
> Khlìjha can distinguish gender in the pronouns, but usually, in the first
> person singular I dont bother translating unless theres a clear contrast
> in the sentences.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhe.
>
> We women drink the tea.
>
> We women drink the tea (as opposed to you men).
>
> We drink the tea.
>
> Qthèwa jhatiyùlkha pexhing.
>
> I, a lady, drink the tea.
>
> I drink the tea.
>
> (Princess Alixhlìnye ends up using the feminine first person pronoun quite
> a bit. Such pronouns almost sound endearing).
>
> Gendered second person pronouns seem a bit less awkward in English.
>
> Qthewayájhei jhatiyùtya texhing?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, maid?
>
> Did you drink of the tea, miss?
>
> Did you drink of the tea?
>
> Actually, gendered second person pronouns come in handy in some situations.
> For instance, at a tea party with three male creatures and one female,
> using the feminine pronoun very clearly draws a contrast.
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 7:36 pm ((PDT))
This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
"Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
Backstory:
I pulled out my Angosey diary, and as usual I was wondering what to write.
Then I thought, why not write about how the FAA (Federal Aviation
Administration) let me know today that I can launch my 20' solar balloon next
week? But then I thought, that's too fracking hard to translate, why not just
say it was cloudy and I went for a run while listening to E Nomine?
But then I thought, this is a CHALLENGE! The gauntlet is hereby thrown. When
I figure out the Angosey translation, I'll post it.
Please do not use the dubitative mood :-)
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 8:07 pm ((PDT))
> This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
>
> "Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
>
> Backstory:
> I pulled out my Angosey diary, and as usual I was wondering what to write.
> Then I thought, why not write about how the FAA (Federal Aviation
> Administration) let me know today that I can launch my 20' solar balloon
> next week? But then I thought, that's too fracking hard to translate, why
> not just say it was cloudy and I went for a run while listening to E Nomine?
>
> But then I thought, this is a CHALLENGE! The gauntlet is hereby thrown.
> When I figure out the Angosey translation, I'll post it.
>
> Please do not use the dubitative mood :-)
>
Here it is in Angosey:
Sindral alray-zenaya'au tha Zereo Araknatheo houah Ihpeteo ndalr (ZAI) isa
au arakhnath sareo ndneo.
The Authority on Transportation by Airborne Objects (ATAO) will allow me to
launch my solar-powered balloon.
Some funny details: the word for airborne object (ihpet) refers to any
non-ballistic airborne object. If I had specified that ihpet is an emotive
rather than physical noun, ZAI would be translated on "The Authority of
Transport by means of Birds"
Also, I found that the word for launch is the same as the word for throw in
Angosey.
Here's the interlinear:
allow EVIDENTIAL_SECONDHAND.launch.ASPECT_EMOTIVE.TENSE_FUTURE
PARTICLE_ABSTRACT authority.DATIVE transportation.DATIVE
TENSE_ABSTRACT.controlling aircraft.DATIVE TENSE_PHYSICAL.concerning (ZAI)
1st.person.singular balloon solar.DATIVE TENSE_PHYSICAL.powering.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 2, 2012 8:50 pm ((PDT))
Well, this was an interesting challenge. It makes me wonder about how much
I have left to develop in my conlang (a lot lot lot).
ÅalilutÅÃr yaá lirsa silirlayaa Åalí sisí ÅaÅuuâ Åi
ÅasaÅaliâaaârilayaa
tÅaâi Åaâla raâaará Åurisiír.
next-week man-SENTIENT COMPL. vessle-INAN. fly GEN. rule 1sg.subj.
sun-ascend-bubble-INAN. GEN. 1sg.obj. DISTAL-IMMED.-allow(EVID)
IMMED.-NEAR-send(EVID.)
Next week, the men who rule the vessles that fly allow my sun-powered
bubble to be set off by me.
Some notes:
- "sun" (Åasa) is also used to derive almost all electrically-powered
technology, so this has be extended to literally mean "solar-powered" here
- The verb declines for spatial deixis of the subjects/objects, but also
can clarify ambiguity. That's why the first verb (allow, ra) is known to
mean "They allow me" -- because of the deictic inflections. Similarly,
that's why the second verb (send, siir) is known to mean, "I send it"
Urm, I still feel like this is very clutter-y, especially in the area
around "men who rule flying vessles."
Still fun!
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
> > This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
> >
> > "Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
> >
> > Backstory:
> > I pulled out my Angosey diary, and as usual I was wondering what to
> write.
> > Then I thought, why not write about how the FAA (Federal Aviation
> > Administration) let me know today that I can launch my 20' solar balloon
> > next week? But then I thought, that's too fracking hard to translate,
> why
> > not just say it was cloudy and I went for a run while listening to E
> Nomine?
> >
> > But then I thought, this is a CHALLENGE! The gauntlet is hereby thrown.
> > When I figure out the Angosey translation, I'll post it.
> >
> > Please do not use the dubitative mood :-)
> >
>
> Here it is in Angosey:
>
> Sindral alray-zenaya'au tha Zereo Araknatheo houah Ihpeteo ndalr (ZAI) isa
> au arakhnath sareo ndneo.
>
> The Authority on Transportation by Airborne Objects (ATAO) will allow me to
> launch my solar-powered balloon.
>
> Some funny details: the word for airborne object (ihpet) refers to any
> non-ballistic airborne object. If I had specified that ihpet is an emotive
> rather than physical noun, ZAI would be translated on "The Authority of
> Transport by means of Birds"
>
> Also, I found that the word for launch is the same as the word for throw in
> Angosey.
>
> Here's the interlinear:
>
> allow EVIDENTIAL_SECONDHAND.launch.ASPECT_EMOTIVE.TENSE_FUTURE
> PARTICLE_ABSTRACT authority.DATIVE transportation.DATIVE
> TENSE_ABSTRACT.controlling aircraft.DATIVE TENSE_PHYSICAL.concerning (ZAI)
> 1st.person.singular balloon solar.DATIVE TENSE_PHYSICAL.powering.
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 5:41 am ((PDT))
*
Kongai khipyayàxhwa khmeilanètyikh ker stanayexhyeûxing tekhyaqenkhayaîpoin
emlenurèlkhim tsèxhla tekhyatwalánaôthe sòlra pfhu khwìqaqi
khyisyarxhnomàyaloi úyan.
**
As for the honored hegemons among the æronauts in the sky port, the men may
be fated to permit one to launch ones solar, glass, hot air balloon next
sennight.
*
Alas, Khlìjha has no dubitative mood. However, one can just use neutral
pronouns to achieve a similar affect, and many of them are gendered.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 7:17 am ((PDT))
Motannira FLer mean lerassannto mean monncolferi usnnin-sole ici saftagna batte.
/mÉ.tãânɪ.ɹa feâleɹ mã le.ɹaâsãn.tÉ mã mÉÌn.kÉlâfe.ɹɪ
ÊsânÄ±Ì sÉâle ɪâʧɪ safâtã.ɲa paâte/
Allow(3rd-f-sing.-future) FL(gen.) my launch(gerund) my balloon(acc.)
warm(pres.participle)-sun this week(dat.) next.
"ATC will allow my launching my sun-warmed balloon this next week"
Ooh. Tricky this one. The problem I had was trying to get my head around the
âHe wants him to seeâ situation. Caccigga handles this as English (is
apparently supposed to do, but hardly anyone does anymore) âhe wants his
seeingâ, rather than âhe wants him seeingâ. It took a few goes before I
understood my own verbal construction, before I realised that it was actually a
nominal construction (with the apparent âgerundâ actually being the present
participle in English, but not being so in Caccigga, because the present
participle forms certain adjectives instead and noun formation being the job of
the gerund).
FL is an abbreviation of âfageu ul lacalmacerâ: âmanagement of
airspaceâ (English: ATC), airspace in turn formed from âlacaâ (area) and
âilmaâ (air), with the âi" dropped in accordance with the vowel dropping
rules. ::pauses for breath::
Interestingly, lacalma is declined for the genitive *as well*, because it forms
a possessive construction (âthe airâs managementâ).
âSolar balloonâ has been translated as âsun warmed balloonâ;
âsun-warmedâ being treated as an adjectival construction, with the present
participle of the verb âto warmâ being used (not the past participle, like
in English), with the word order VSO, âsunâ follows the verb.
And then I realised ânext weekâ required a determiner; just because.
Why is something so *easy* so *complicated*? Translating into Nauspayr today
would probably kill me.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 3 May 2012, at 13:41, Puey McCleary wrote:
> *
>
> Kongai khipyayàxhwa khmeilanètyikh ker stanayexhyeûxing tekhyaqenkhayaîpoin
> emlenurèlkhim tsèxhla tekhyatwalánaôthe sòlra pfhu khwìqaqi
> khyisyarxhnomàyaloiâ úyan.
> **
>
> As for the honored hegemons among the æronauts in the sky port, the men may
> be fated to permit one to launch oneâs solar, glass, hot air balloon next
> sennight.
> *
>
> Alas, Khlìjha has no dubitative mood. However, one can just use neutral
> pronouns to achieve a similar affect, and many of them are gendered.
Messages in this topic (5)
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