There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Tony Harris
1b. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Charles W Brickner
1c. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Charlie Brickner
1d. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Puey McCleary
2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: David McCann
2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Logan Kearsley
2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jesse Bangs
2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Sam Stutter
2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jesse Bangs
2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Jim Henry
2.7. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Puey McCleary
2.8. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: David McCann
3b. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: Logan Kearsley
4a. Re: Senjecas poem: The Forest
From: Douglas Koller
5a. Glottal thrill
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5b. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Michael Everson
5c. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Zach Wellstood
5d. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Patrick Dunn
5e. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Michael Everson
5f. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Michael Everson
5g. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Patrick Dunn
5h. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5i. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Charles W Brickner
5j. Re: Glottal thrill
From: And Rosta
Messages
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1a. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 7:49 am ((PDT))
Alurhsa:
Kánónevár Nyáshánsësá lévánô lhen eshcìrónâ gásá shháványá
lháls-ddúpárrenán lúvemárshán.
Command-people-collective of-Flight-causing will-allow me
to-cause-to-skyward next week my--balloon light-energy-using.
On 05/02/2012 10:36 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
>
> "Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
>
> Backstory:
> I pulled out my Angosey diary, and as usual I was wondering what to write.
> Then I thought, why not write about how the FAA (Federal Aviation
> Administration) let me know today that I can launch my 20' solar balloon next
> week? But then I thought, that's too fracking hard to translate, why not
> just say it was cloudy and I went for a run while listening to E Nomine?
>
> But then I thought, this is a CHALLENGE! The gauntlet is hereby thrown.
> When I figure out the Angosey translation, I'll post it.
>
> Please do not use the dubitative mood :-)
Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 9:59 am ((PDT))
This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
"Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
I only needed two new words for this translation: air traffic control and solar
ballon.
pèþreìðdaadómasë sefaamrás mùsë suulkùbïgélom paúsu mum u-dóra:
pèþ-reìð-daa-dóm-as-ë = fly-vehicle-flow-control-NOM.sg-epenthetic
sef-aamr-ás = seven-day-LOC.sg, locative of time
m-ùs-ë = I-LOC.s-epenthetic
suul-kùbï-gél-om = sun-inflatable-ball, globe-LAT.sg
paús-u = throw, launch-SUP
m-um = I-LAT.sg
u-dór-a = FUT-allow-IND
Thanks for the exercise!
Charlie
Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:34 am ((PDT))
Darn it! I forgot "next".
pèþreìðdaadómasë *néémhanta* sefaamrás mùsë suulkùbïgélom paúsu mum u-dóra:
néémh-anta = approaching, coming-agent participle.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 2:15 pm ((PDT))
With regards to "Insha�Allah!," "Tekhya-qenkha-ya�poin," that is, "they are
fated to permit one," is a Predicate in the Vatic Aspect.
The Vatic Aspect almost functions as a weak future tense, but without
intention.
For instance:
Qthewaya�poin jhatiy�tya� Alixhl�nye.
Alixhl�nye is fated to drink of the tea.
Alixhl�nye shall drink of the tea.
Alixhl�nye must drink of the tea.
�Tis prophesied that Alixhl�nye drink of the tea.
Compare this to the Injunctive Mood:
Qtheway�mpein jhatiy�tya� Alixhl�nye!
Alixhl�nye intends to drink of the tea!
Qtheway�mpein jh�ti� Alixhl�nyeyan!
Alixhl�nye SHALL drink the tea!
The Vatic Aspect is quite useful in a society where all marriages are
arranged, caste is dependent upon the standing of one�s family, and
everyone had better do what they�re told. Surely these �ronauts, who are
commanded by the hands of the War Clans and the masks of the Noble Caste,
are just doing as they�re told.
Don�t we all?
I�m not entirely sure whether the Vatic Aspect is quite the same as
"Insha�Allah" or "Deo volente," but it does have a similar feel to it.
Now, whatever we do, let�s not use this time on the solar balloon to toss
walnuts and acorns on the elders or in any other way subvert the social
order. Because that would just be plain nutty.
Messages in this topic (11)
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2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 8:46 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 1 May 2012 14:40:39 -0400
Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
> My wife is Russian and I am in the process of learning her language
> and I have found that the verb for "to become tired" is conjugated
> differently in the first person based on the gender of the speaker.
> I have studied English, French and German but they don't work this
> way. Is this a common thing to do or not?
Gender agreement in the verb is almost as common as in the pronoun
(Afro-Asiatic, Caucasian, Chinook, Iroquois, Dravidian). Some
confine it to the 3rd person in the verb, but many don't. Indo-European
gender is unusual in a number of respects. One can actually see it
developing and extending: Homeric Greek & Vedic Sanskrit > Latin >
Modern Romance and Slavonic.
On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
not a grammatical constraint, but a social one. Some young feminists
will use it as a gesture of defiance against social attitudes.
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 10:28 am ((PDT))
On 1 May 2012 17:22, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/1/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do this?
>
> One of my sketchy artlangs marked gender pervasively on verbs and in
> first and second person pronouns as well as third-person. Several
> verbs had suppletive forms for different genders, too, e.g. "to
> dance", "to speak" and some others.
I remember talking about that previously. Not sure if the natlang
example of Russian's two different ways of saying "to get married" was
brought up then; but Russian has two completely unrelated verbs for
"for a man to get married" (zhenit'sja) and "for a woman to get
married" (vykhodit' zamuzh). So there is at least a little bit of
natlang precedence for that sort of thing.
Do you happen to have any documentation for that sketch?
On 2 May 2012 15:41, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Puey McCleary <[email protected]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Those of you who have languages with gendered first person or second
>> person
>> > pronouns, how do you render such pronouns into good, idiomatic English
>> when
>> > translating? Do you just ignore the gender? Do you add an extra phrase?
>> Do
>> > you just try to use context?
>>
>
> How relevant is the gender of the referent to the discourse. I see no
> reason to refer to gender if the reader knows it by context. Probably more
> important is avoiding using certain instincts in one's native language when
> speaking in the conlang (or a foreign natlang, in fact).
Relevance is key. This is one of those numerous areas where
"translation" by words and rendering the original meaning can be quite
different things, and it's more important to consider pragmatics an
how you would actually render the thought of a sentence rather than
what the equivalent of any particular word is.
When working with Mev Pailom, I don't worry about the difference
between I-masc. and I-fem. at all by itself. However, there are lots
of gender-neutral words in Mev Pailom (e.g. "spouse", "husband or
wife") whose gendered referents are distinguished entirely by the
gender of possessive or subject pronouns. Thus, e.g., "my-masc.
spouse" would get idiomatically translated as "my wife" while "my-fem.
spouse" would be "my husband".
> I once gave a
> speech in Chinese class about a friend, and went the entire speech without
> mentioning that she was a girl (Mandarin Chinese has a single third-person
> pronoun _ta1_, which is written differently for different genders, but
> clearly all the same word in the spoken language).
Incidentally, this can be done in English, though with greater
difficulty. Every once in a while I will find myself struggling for an
appropriate pronoun and then suddenly remember "oh yeah, I can just
use 'he', and who cares if I incidentally mention gender?"
-l.
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jesse Bangs" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 10:52 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 1 May 2012 17:22, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 5/1/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do
> this?
> >
> > One of my sketchy artlangs marked gender pervasively on verbs and in
> > first and second person pronouns as well as third-person. Several
> > verbs had suppletive forms for different genders, too, e.g. "to
> > dance", "to speak" and some others.
>
> I remember talking about that previously. Not sure if the natlang
> example of Russian's two different ways of saying "to get married" was
> brought up then; but Russian has two completely unrelated verbs for
> "for a man to get married" (zhenit'sja) and "for a woman to get
> married" (vykhodit' zamuzh). So there is at least a little bit of
> natlang precedence for that sort of thing.
>
Romanian has a three-way distinction:
a se mărita - to get married (for a woman)
a se însura - to get married (for a man)
a se căsători - to get married (reciprocal, gender-neutral)
--
JS Bangs
[email protected]
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of
Alexandria
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:01 am ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012, at 18:51, Jesse Bangs wrote:
> Romanian has a three-way distinction:
>
> a se mărita - to get married (for a woman)
> a se însura - to get married (for a man)
> a se căsători - to get married (reciprocal, gender-neutral)
Are there semantic / etymological issues at work here?
Now, I don't speak Romanian, so I'm just throwing random latinate stems around
here:
to get married? ("to get husband", which is traditionally what the woman would
be doing)
to get safe? solid? sure? ("to make sure" that you gain an heir?)
to move in together? ("to get house")
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jesse Bangs" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:11 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3 May 2012, at 18:51, Jesse Bangs wrote:
> > Romanian has a three-way distinction:
> >
> > a se mărita - to get married (for a woman)
> > a se însura - to get married (for a man)
> > a se căsători - to get married (reciprocal, gender-neutral)
>
>
> Are there semantic / etymological issues at work here?
>
> Now, I don't speak Romanian, so I'm just throwing random latinate stems
> around here:
>
> to get married? ("to get husband", which is traditionally what the woman
> would be doing)
>
This is correct, as this is derived from Latin _maritare_, which in turn is
from _maritus_ "husband, bridegroom". _maritus_ seems to give Romanian
_mărit_, but this is an uncommon word that I had never heard before looking
this up.
> to get safe? solid? sure? ("to make sure" that you gain an heir?)
>
Dexonline.ro (http://dexonline.ro/definitie/insura/) says that this is
probably from L. _inuxorare_, from _uxor_ "wife". So it's semantically
parallel to the feminine version, though the stem is now pretty obscure in
Romanian.
> to move in together? ("to get house")
>
This seems to be the origin, and the stem _casa_ is semantically relevant
still today.
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
--
JS Bangs
[email protected]
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of
Alexandria
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:39 pm ((PDT))
On 5/3/12, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1 May 2012 17:22, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 5/1/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In a broader sense, are there any languages (con-or natural) that do
>>> this?
>>
>> One of my sketchy artlangs marked gender pervasively on verbs and in
>> first and second person pronouns as well as third-person. Several
>> verbs had suppletive forms for different genders, too, e.g. "to
>> dance", "to speak" and some others.
> Do you happen to have any documentation for that sketch?
It's all on paper. Remind me again in a couple of weeks and I'll try
to find it and type it up.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.7. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 1:58 pm ((PDT))
In terms of languages with different gendered words for getting married, we
do have some interesting examples from Esperanto:
Edziĝi = to become a husband
Edziniĝi = to become a wife
Geedziĝi = to become a married couple
Edzigi = make someone into a husband
Edzinigi = make someone into a wife
Geedzigi = make persons into a married couple
In constrast Láadan has the noun "eba" which means "spouse," which can only
be used as a verb with a plural subject.
Bíi eril meh-eba X i Y wa
X and Y became spouses to each other.
X and Y married each other.
Unlike Esperanto, though, Klingon has completely different stems for its
verbs of getting married.
nay = (of a wife) to marry
Saw = (of a husband) to marry
Constrast:
nay-be’.
She does not marry.
nay be’.
The woman marries.
nay-be’ be’.
The woman does not marry.
Saw-be’.
He does not marry.
be’ Saw-be’.
He does not marry the woman.
I would guess that nay-wI’ means "bride" and Saw-wI’ means "bridegroom,"
but it is entirely possible that Klingon uses an enirely different stem for
those or perhaps has a genderless word such as "parmaqqay," "romantic
companion."
We would have had a good chance to know for certain, if the Klingon wedding
in the Deep Space Nine episode had actually been in Klingon (with
subtitles).
That episode, by the way, and the rather operatic wedding ceremony, makes
me think that we may actually have an etymology for the word "tlhIngan." In
the modern language "ngan" means inhabitant, and we find it in such words
as "DenIbngan" "Denebian," "nuralngan" "Neuralese," "reghuluSngan"
"Regulan," "romuluSngan" "Romulan," "tera’ngan" "Earther," "verangan"
"Ferengi," "vulqangan" "Vulcan," and "’orghengan" "Organian." But what’s a
tlhin(g)-ngan?
I know there’s a place called "tlhIng yoS," "the Kling District." But
what’s a "tlhIng?"
Moreover, why is "tlhIngan" often used not to mean "an individual of the
dominant species of Qo’nos" but rather "someone who exhibits the best
traits of that species?"
In the wedding ceremony we hear a great deal about "the Klingon heart," and
the phrase seems to carry certain spiritual or at least cultural
connotations with it.
Perhaps in the ancestral language *tlhIn or *tlhIng meant something like "a
great spirit" or "a great heart." Or it might actually have meant "the
heart of a man or woman as opposed to an animal’s heart." *tlhIn(g)-ngan
then meant "someone with great courage," and later became generalized to
mean the entire species. "Ngan" might have started life as a suffix, but
now has taken on a completely different meaning, now that Klingons have to
meet other types of aliens.
The modern day word for heart, "tIq" could have originally meant "animal’s
heart," such as a "targh tIq." (Though one wonders whether the word for
river "bIQtIq" is a combination of "water-heart" or of the verb "tIq" "(of
an object) be long, lengthy.")
After all, just as some languages have different forms for male or female
subjects of verbs, some languages also distinguish body parts that belong
to people as opposed to those that belong to animals. In English we have
hand/paw and hair/furr, for instance.
Messages in this topic (43)
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2.8. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 3:44 pm ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
> not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he wants to
talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you learn that the
referent for the subject is actually female. It becomes semantically
incorrect (because it's considered socially unacceptable to call a woman a
"he"), but grammatically it's still perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in
Japanese, although due to the nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are
not as clear-cut.
> Some young feminists
> will use it as a gesture of defiance against social attitudes.
>
It's also used in songs sung by women, when it fits the metre better than
the three-mora alternatives "atashi" and "watashi".
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (43)
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3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 8:56 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 1 May 2012 18:22:22 -0400
Allison Nicol <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also
> fairly new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much
> more experienced people could point me in the direction of some
> resources. I'm looking for any webpages, papers, books, etc. that
> compare and contrast the way various languages approach particular
> linguistic problems, but specifically, right now I'm curious about
> how various languages create complement phrases/complementizers. I'm
> trying to sort it out for my conlang and didn't want to just copy
> English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase construction without at
> least taking a look at how other languages do it.
My notes show the following options:
1. Finite clause
a. Indicative verb
b. Modal verb
c. Paratactic verb
2. Non-finite clause
a. Infinitive
b. Gerund
c. Converb
d. Participle
All languages seem to have at least one finite and one non-finite
construction.
Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 9:26 am ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012 09:56, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 May 2012 18:22:22 -0400
> Allison Nicol <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hey there, everybody. I'm new (to this list, obviously, but also
>> fairly new to conlanging) and I was wondering if some of you much
>> more experienced people could point me in the direction of some
>> resources. I'm looking for any webpages, papers, books, etc. that
>> compare and contrast the way various languages approach particular
>> linguistic problems, but specifically, right now I'm curious about
>> how various languages create complement phrases/complementizers. I'm
>> trying to sort it out for my conlang and didn't want to just copy
>> English's phrase + "that" + complement phrase construction without at
>> least taking a look at how other languages do it.
>
> My notes show the following options:
> 1. Finite clause
> a. Indicative verb
> b. Modal verb
> c. Paratactic verb
Do you have examples of languages that use paratactic constructions
for complements? I'm not entirely sure I know what that would look
like.
> 2. Non-finite clause
> a. Infinitive
> b. Gerund
> c. Converb
> d. Participle
> All languages seem to have at least one finite and one non-finite
> construction.
I am strongly tempted to mark that as an information-theoretic
universal- a feature of language that is dictated by its ability to
transmit arbitrary logical propositions, as opposed to something that
results from features of specifically human cognition or just plain
chance. Actually proving that would take Some Doing, though.
Mev Pailom uses finite clauses that are indistinguishable from matrix
clauses, or deverbal nominalizations The nominalizations aren't even
non-finite clauses, they're genuinely nouns and any thematic arguments
have to be attached by prepositions. Regarding finite complement
clauses, there is a word "at" which initially looks like acts as a
complementizer like English "that"; however, it can also occur at the
beginning of matrix clauses, and really has the function of noting
"this is a new clause" rather than "this is a complement" (kind of
like sentence-initial "and" in English). It's pretty much *always*
grammatically optional (because you can almost always identify the
beginning of a clause by the presence of tense particles or a verb,
unless inversion has happened), unlike "that", but gets used for style
& disambiguation purposes (e.g., to mark a noun-noun zero-copula
construction when there aren't any tense particles around just so you
know that it is a zero-copula and not just a couple of nouns that
might be attached to other clauses verbs; incidentally, in *that*
case, since Mev Pailom is VSO, "at" superficially looks like a
predicate there, but isn't).
-l.
Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Senjecas poem: The Forest
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:08 am ((PDT))
> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:07:30 -0400
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Senjecas poem: The Forest
> To: [email protected]
>Silva in luminae
>Lunae arcana est
>Domus mea
>Silva in luminae
>Stellarum est.
> The forest is enclosed in the light of the moon;
> my home is the forest in the light of the stars.
I took a slight liberty so that the form would be more parallel and be more
Géarthnunsy poetic:
Cha ans míközdönsalön lü
Chí völsív cha rhíansas mal.
Chö béöbs síteb lü
Cha ans chí völsív chauk latursaung nöi.
the forest-nom. hidden-nom. aux.-transcendent
the light-loc. the moon-gen. be.located
the house-nom. my-nom. trans.
the forest-nom. the light-loc. the star-gen./pl. be
Transcendent tense makes it even more poetic-sounding, but if this is part of a
larger poem, one might pare it back to the present tense. It would depend, I
guess. Now off to Air Traffic Control.
Kou
Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:55 am ((PDT))
Hi everyone!
I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill? Should
sound pretty orkish, but I i think my proto-Janjarin is to have something
like that alongside with other rhotic sounds. Could it be that IPA contains
a character for the glottal thrill, although I can't see it on the Wiki
page?
Thanks!
Kolya
Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 11:58 am ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
Is this more exciting than a trill?
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:00 pm ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
Is this more exciting than a trill?
Ohoho, my reaction too.
Is that sound physically possible?
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Michael Everson <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
>
> Is this more exciting than a trill?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
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5d. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:16 pm ((PDT))
A glottal trill doesn't seem possible to me: it's just creaky-voiced
whispered vowels, when I do it. A uvular trill, on the other hand, is
pretty common in obscure languages like French and some varieties of
English.
A glottal thrill, on the other hand, sounds positively naughty. :)
--Patrick
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Zach Wellstood <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
>
> Is this more exciting than a trill?
>
> Ohoho, my reaction too.
>
>
> Is that sound physically possible?
>
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Michael Everson <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
> >
> > Is this more exciting than a trill?
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> <Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
> ra'aalalí 'a!
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5e. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:17 pm ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012, at 19:59, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> Is that sound physically possible?
http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2009/08/trilling.html
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (10)
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5f. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:22 pm ((PDT))
On 3 May 2012, at 20:16, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> A glottal trill doesn't seem possible to me: it's just creaky-voiced
> whispered vowels, when I do it.
Ah, but...
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/9/6/9b786f79-e5cb-41ad-aa4f-c2ddc6c637de.jpg
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (10)
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5g. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 12:57 pm ((PDT))
Cute cats win every argument. They are my kryptonite.
--Patrick
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Michael Everson <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 3 May 2012, at 20:16, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
> > A glottal trill doesn't seem possible to me: it's just creaky-voiced
> whispered vowels, when I do it.
>
> Ah, but...
> http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/9/6/9b786f79-e5cb-41ad-aa4f-c2ddc6c637de.jpg
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5h. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 1:00 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:59 PM, Zach Wellstood <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
>
> Is this more exciting than a trill?
>
FoR me ze tRill is RazeR common (imadjin me seying zis viz a khevy
RRRRushhan akcent) ;-B
Ohoho, my reaction too.
>
>
> Is that sound physically possible?
>
Well, just like in the picture: animals can do this. The Janja people have
an undeveloped tongue, so their lang as well as the langs of other peoples
of their planet are restricted to labials and uvular-glottals plus tones.
Volens nolens such sounds occur.
Also, I think I can pronounce it. Maybe it is a creaky vowel of some sort,
but not more vowel than a syllabial r of whatever kind, imho.
>
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Michael Everson <[email protected]
> >wrote:
>
> > On 3 May 2012, at 19:55, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill?
> >
> > Is this more exciting than a trill?
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> <Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
> ra'aalalí 'a!
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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5i. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 1:15 pm ((PDT))
A glottal trill doesn't seem possible to me: it's just creaky-voiced
whispered vowels, when I do it. A uvular trill, on the other hand, is
pretty common in obscure languages like French and some varieties of
English.
A glottal thrill, on the other hand, sounds positively naughty. :)
--Patrick
I haven't had such a good laugh on this list in a long time!
Charlie
Messages in this topic (10)
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5j. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 4:02 pm ((PDT))
Voicing is glottal trilling.
On May 3, 2012 7:55 PM, "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi everyone!
>
> I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a glottal thrill? Should
> sound pretty orkish, but I i think my proto-Janjarin is to have something
> like that alongside with other rhotic sounds. Could it be that IPA contains
> a character for the glottal thrill, although I can't see it on the Wiki
> page?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kolya
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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