There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1b. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
From: R A Brown
1c. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
From: Leonardo Castro
1d. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
From: [email protected]
2a. Re: Of Elves and Mountains (Hesperic etymologies)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re extensions to Esperanto
From: John H. Chalmers
3b. Re: Re extensions to Esperanto
From: Matthew Turnbull
4a. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
From: Alex Fink
4b. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
From: Jim Henry
4c. Timeless tenses (was: Are there any conventions for issuing a propos
From: R A Brown
4d. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
From: BPJ
4e. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
From: George Corley
4f. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
From: Eugene Oh
5a. Re: Online Moten Dictionary
From: George Corley
6. THEORY: Asperger syndrome and hyperpolyglotism.
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
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1a. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 7:28 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 08 March 2013 05:00:54 Leonardo Castro wrote:
> I can't decide a name of the language I have been sketching for a long
> time. Those are some patterns of language name I have recognized:
>
> A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français, Português,
> tlhIngan Hol (?), etc.
> B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
> C. "universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
> Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
> D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
> E. a name related to the features of the language: Lojban, Loglan...
> F. "language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
>
> I don't remember any example of the following:
>
> G. "this-language-I'm-speaking-right-now": this could be done with a
> specific pronoun.
>
> Which one do you prefer? Does your conlang name fit one of these patterns?
It always depends on what the conlang is made for. If your
conlang is a fictional language, it is best named according to
category A, as most natlang names are of that sort. If it is
an auxlang, C makes sense - and *only* if it an auxlang. For
an engelang or abstract artlang, everything except C makes
sense.
What regards my conlangs, most are fictional languages and
thus have names in category A. The experimental projects
get provisional designations X-1, X-2, X-3 etc., of which only
X-3 has meanwhile acquired a self-designation, in category E:
/kʷətç/ 'language of small time' because the language is an
attempt at a speedtalk with unisegmental morphemes. The name
is anglicized as "Quetch".
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:16 am ((PST))
On 08/03/2013 04:00, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> I can't decide a name of the language I have been
> sketching for a long time. Those are some patterns of
> language name I have recognized:
>
> A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français,
> Português, tlhIngan Hol (?), etc.
> B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
> C."universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
> Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
> D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
'Esperanto' wasn't chosen because it is a "nice sounding
word." It mean "one who hopes" and was the pseudonym under
which Zamenhof published his first book on the
'International Language' in July 1887. Or rather, the
pseudonym was "Doktoro Esperanto."
"Esperanto" was adopted as nickname for the language, but
soon became its name.
Whether any other language has been named from a pseudonym
used by its creator, I don't know. But languages may be
named arbitrarily by a name that the composer likes; for
example Claudio Gnoli named his loglang 'Liva' "just because
[he] liked the sound (it also was the name of a nice girl in
a Slovak novel I read a long time ago)."
Which reminds me that one of my many teenage efforts was
named _Ejl_ /ejl/ from the initials of a girl I was fond off
at the time :)
> E. a name related to the features of the language:
> Lojban, Loglan...
Engelangs are frequently named according some feature
according to which the conlang is engineered.
> F."language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
Is that what it means?
[snip]
> Does your conlang name fit one of these patterns?
TAKE, I guess, comes under E, since it is an acronym of _Το
Ἄνευ Κλίσι Ἑλληνική_ "Greek without inflexions."
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/index.html
But the other names do not fit any of those patterns.
'Outidic' is a nickname of the (fictional) 17th cent.
auxlang of Dr Norman Outis, who actually called the language
"Lingua Communis."
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
As for the various names given to creations that have arisen
from the still unfinished (and probably never to be
finished) Briefscript project - both Bax and Brx both derive
from the abbreviation 'BrSc' which was adopted (not by me,
tho I came to use it also) on both the Auxlang & Conlang
list several years ago. the name _Piashi_ was derived from
the pronunciation given to _bax_ in a "Roman character
syllabary."
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Briefscript/Index.html
As a result of a recent Conlang thread and subsequent
private emails following it, another conlang will be coming
along - but I'll post more info at a later date. The name
has not yet been determined (tho it _might_ be named
according criterion A above).
======================================================
On 08/03/2013 10:06, Mechthild Czapp wrote:[snip]
> It depends on the language, doesn't it :)
and:
On 08/03/2013 15:28, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:[snip]
> It always depends on what the conlang is made for.
Amen!
There cannot be any rule of thumb over this. It depends what
the language is for and, to not a small extent, upon the
whim of its creator :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:36 am ((PST))
Anauê!
As more than one person have said, it depends on what my language is
intended to be. I don't have a conculture nor a conworld and I develop
my conlang "as if" it would be useful as an auxlang of ridiculously
easy pronunciation for most world's people but keeping word-break
detectability and controllable level of ambiguity (you can be as
specific as you want).
I don't know if a language intended to be auxiliary can be called
"auxlang" since its early development (BTW, how do you pronounce
"auxlang"?). Besides, although I do have auxlang dreams (phantasies?),
I think that an auxiliary language should be maturated (in both its
structure and utility range) instead of being completely conceived at
once and imposed.
In the age of glasses that translate languages in real time and show
subtitles, a constructed language has to find another vocation. So, my
language is above all an experimental language aimed at ease of
pronunciation, parseability and controllable unambiguity.
That said, my attempts were as follow, so far:
> A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français, Português, tlhIngan Hol
> (?), etc.
* "language of linkers", "language of community", "language of this
group"... "linker" has two senses: people who link themselves to
others and the "verbs" that link a noun to another ;
These names could sound as "Lalinki", "Lankuelinki", "Lanku-e-honti",
"Linkalanki", etc. I have also considered using Finnish root for
language and naming it "Kielu-e-kuopu" (language spoken by this
group).
> B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
* no attempt of this kind yet ;
> C. "universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
> Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
It could be "Lankue Monti" (language of world people, also spelled
"Lanku-e-monti"), "Montalanku", etc.
As the compound "Lanku-e-monti" would be literally "the language of
the people of the world", it could be ambiguous as it could refer to
another better succeeded auxlang. But, if an auxlang has to use an
expression "language of the world" to refer to another language, it
might be interpreted as a declaration of failure. :-)
A solution is to use some particles that make sure that it's a proper
noun, but it would sound as "liu-lanku-e-monti-lui-loi" (
open-parenthesis language of the world people close-parenthesis
proper-noun-particle ).
> D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
* I've considered using the three main articulations (labial, coronal,
gutural), different vowels and a nasal stop: "Lihanpu", "Hamontu",
"Limantu", etc. The name itself would be a demonstration of the
language sounds.
> E. a name related to the features of the language: Lojban, Loglan...
* The aforesaid names with "link-" fall into this category too,
because my language is binary, based on "links" between things (kind
of "oriented graphs").
> F. "language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
* I don't like this option and I don't even know what my name sounds
like in my conlang yet. This kind of name would arise only if other
people started referring to my language as "Leonardo's language".
> I don't remember any example of the following:
>
> G. "this-language-I'm-speaking-
right-now": this could be done with a
> specific pronoun.
* with the particle "kou" that means "related to this text", it could
be "lanku-kou".
Do any of these names sound beautiful, funny or cacophonic to you? I
hope that avoiding voiced consonants doesn't make them sound as
"primitive". :-P Actually, you can pronounce any consonant voiced or
voiceless.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/3/8 Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Friday 08 March 2013 05:00:54 Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
>> I can't decide a name of the language I have been sketching for a long
>> time. Those are some patterns of language name I have recognized:
>>
>> A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français, Português,
>> tlhIngan Hol (?), etc.
>> B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
>> C. "universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
>> Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
>> D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
>> E. a name related to the features of the language: Lojban, Loglan...
>> F. "language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
>>
>> I don't remember any example of the following:
>>
>> G. "this-language-I'm-speaking-right-now": this could be done with a
>> specific pronoun.
>>
>> Which one do you prefer? Does your conlang name fit one of these patterns?
>
> It always depends on what the conlang is made for. If your
> conlang is a fictional language, it is best named according to
> category A, as most natlang names are of that sort. If it is
> an auxlang, C makes sense - and *only* if it an auxlang. For
> an engelang or abstract artlang, everything except C makes
> sense.
>
> What regards my conlangs, most are fictional languages and
> thus have names in category A. The experimental projects
> get provisional designations X-1, X-2, X-3 etc., of which only
> X-3 has meanwhile acquired a self-designation, in category E:
> /kʷətç/ 'language of small time' because the language is an
> attempt at a speedtalk with unisegmental morphemes. The name
> is anglicized as "Quetch".
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
Posted by: [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:53 am ((PST))
How about mixing E and F? "Leonlanku" or "LeonLink" :-)
--Ph. D.
Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Anauê!
>
> As more than one person have said, it depends on what my language is
> intended to be. I don't have a conculture nor a conworld and I develop
> my conlang "as if" it would be useful as an auxlang of ridiculously
> easy pronunciation for most world's people but keeping word-break
> detectability and controllable level of ambiguity (you can be as
> specific as you want).
>
> I don't know if a language intended to be auxiliary can be called
> "auxlang" since its early development (BTW, how do you pronounce
> "auxlang"?). Besides, although I do have auxlang dreams (phantasies?),
> I think that an auxiliary language should be maturated (in both its
> structure and utility range) instead of being completely conceived at
> once and imposed.
>
> In the age of glasses that translate languages in real time and show
> subtitles, a constructed language has to find another vocation. So, my
> language is above all an experimental language aimed at ease of
> pronunciation, parseability and controllable unambiguity.
>
> That said, my attempts were as follow, so far:
>
> > A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français, Português,
> tlhIngan Hol (?), etc.
>
> * "language of linkers", "language of community", "language of this
> group"... "linker" has two senses: people who link themselves to
> others and the "verbs" that link a noun to another ;
>
> These names could sound as "Lalinki", "Lankuelinki", "Lanku-e-honti",
> "Linkalanki", etc. I have also considered using Finnish root for
> language and naming it "Kielu-e-kuopu" (language spoken by this
> group).
>
>
> > B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
>
> * no attempt of this kind yet ;
>
> > C. "universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
> > Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
>
> It could be "Lankue Monti" (language of world people, also spelled
> "Lanku-e-monti"), "Montalanku", etc.
>
> As the compound "Lanku-e-monti" would be literally "the language of
> the people of the world", it could be ambiguous as it could refer to
> another better succeeded auxlang. But, if an auxlang has to use an
> expression "language of the world" to refer to another language, it
> might be interpreted as a declaration of failure. :-)
>
> A solution is to use some particles that make sure that it's a proper
> noun, but it would sound as "liu-lanku-e-monti-lui-loi" (
> open-parenthesis language of the world people close-parenthesis
> proper-noun-particle ).
>
> > D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
>
> * I've considered using the three main articulations (labial, coronal,
> gutural), different vowels and a nasal stop: "Lihanpu", "Hamontu",
> "Limantu", etc. The name itself would be a demonstration of the
> language sounds.
>
> > E. a name related to the features of the language: Lojban, Loglan...
>
> * The aforesaid names with "link-" fall into this category too,
> because my language is binary, based on "links" between things (kind
> of "oriented graphs").
>
> > F. "language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
>
> * I don't like this option and I don't even know what my name sounds
> like in my conlang yet. This kind of name would arise only if other
> people started referring to my language as "Leonardo's language".
>
> > I don't remember any example of the following:
> >
> > G. "this-language-I'm-speaking-
> right-now": this could be done with a
> > specific pronoun.
>
> * with the particle "kou" that means "related to this text", it could
> be "lanku-kou".
>
> Do any of these names sound beautiful, funny or cacophonic to you? I
> hope that avoiding voiced consonants doesn't make them sound as
> "primitive". :-P Actually, you can pronounce any consonant voiced or
> voiceless.
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Of Elves and Mountains (Hesperic etymologies)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 7:33 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 08 March 2013 08:22:58 Olivier Simon wrote:
> I rather think that "alp(es)" is a word older than the arrival of
> Indo-Europeans in Europe. It may mean something like "mountain meadow"
> (cf. French "alpage"), or simply "mountain".
Sure. And my Hesperic languages are meant to flesh out a group
of these pre-IE languages as fictional languages.
> Some have tried to connect it
> with the antique name of Gibraltar, famous for being clustered atop a rock
> : Calpe (from * (k)alpe ?)
Maybe. A Hesperic name is not entirely out of the question
there, and the initial /k/ may be a strengthened laryngeal
(the Proto-Hesperic form is *xalb-; and while most Hesperic
languages have lost that *x, that has happened much later
than the breakup of Proto-Hesperic).
On Friday 08 March 2013 09:24:16 BPJ wrote:
> Do you know that the Romance language of the western Alps apparently have
> the opposite change at least before labials (and perhaps elsewhere. The
> language autonym is Arpitan and Mons Silvius has become Cervin
> (Matterhorn).
This is interesting. Maybe instability of liquids is an areal
feature of the western Alps. Or the /l/ > /r/ change arose from
a hypercorrection of the /r/ > /l/ change acquired from an
Alpianic substratum.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re extensions to Esperanto
Posted by: "John H. Chalmers" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:31 am ((PST))
Some years back, there was a project to miex Esperanto with Cherokee to
create a polysynthetic version called Poliespo, IIRC.
--John
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Re extensions to Esperanto
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:34 am ((PST))
Is there a link to this or a text version availible, this concept is kindof
blowing my mind!
On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 10:31 AM, John H. Chalmers <[email protected]>wrote:
> Some years back, there was a project to miex Esperanto with Cherokee to
> create a polysynthetic version called Poliespo, IIRC.
>
> --John
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 8:37 am ((PST))
On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>[snip]
>>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
>>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
>>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
>>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
>>> be part of a good language.
Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system being
non-obligatory is the only way to go!
>> Well, in finite verbs the aorist certainly has a
>> definite tense, namely the past. But in imperatives,
>> infinitives and subjunctive/optative forms, as well as
>> participles, it often has more a sense of aspect.
>
>Delete "often has more." "Aorist" essentially =
>_perfective_ (*not* perfect, which is a different thing).
The aorist, yes. But I was just rereading Ringe on the PIE verbal system, and
(if I haven't confused my sources) he repeated a claim that the Ancient Greek
injunctive, together with the Sanskrit injunctive, could have a more tenseless
sense than the (augment-bearing) aorist. Is this so for Greek?
On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:16:10 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>I once proposed a new tense for Esperanto, using an ending "-es", to
>represent events outside the event cone of relativity.
>http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/4thtense
>It didn't go over well.
I haven't read the discussion you link, but from a physicist's point of view, I
quite like that, it's a very fitting extension. Thing is, it doesn't seem very
useful at human scales, where a second of space is immense and a second of time
is minuscule. I suspect that if this system occurred in the wild it would be
indistinguishable in practice from, and so would be analyzed by human users as,
-is: past
-es: present, elsewhere
-as: present, here
-os: future
On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 07/03/2013 22:42, Matthew George wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>> Even in the simplest scenarios involving time travel,
>> you can no longer speak of the past or future as
>> something that will be the same for everyone and
>> everything. Instead of an absolute perspective, it's
>> relative. So grammar that permits only that absolute
>> view excludes most possibilities. And alternate time
>> lines? Forget it.
>
>Adding extra "tenses" IMO is going to make the situation
>even more complicated. It would seem to me better to follow
>Chinese and scrap tenses, and verbs only (optionally) to
>show aspectual difference.
Hear, hear. JBR also says it well:
| European languages such as English, or indeed Esperanto, treat tense --
| which is really a context-dependent pointer like this, on your left, here
| etc. -- as if it was an essential, objective feature of the event, just
| as plurality is an attribute of objects. And tense marking on verbs is
| obligatory, no matter how redundant or meaningless this is – whether the
| situation described is tenseless (time is a dimension, seven is prime),
| tensed (I was born in 1967, Hitler shot himself) or indeed metatensed (I
| will kill Hitler, this Time Line has become unstable)! The best solution
| isn't the Hitchhiker's Guide one of inventing special tenses for time
|travellers; it's the normal non-European approach of ignoring tense unless
| it's worth explicitly mentioning.
[http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#appx]
Alex
Messages in this topic (22)
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4b. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 9:05 am ((PST))
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm trying to write grammatical additions that would permit Esperanto to
> succinctly describe and refer to situations that hypothetically arise as a
> result of time travel of various sorts.
It seems to me that Esperanto is already better equipped than most
languages to deal with time travel, with the various ways you can
combine the tense/aspect participial suffixes with the tense/mood
endings. I'd suggest exploring the possibilities there thoroughly
before you add new affixes or endings.
For instance, one could describe things that one plans to go back in
time and do as something like "Mi estos farinta ion". That has
another possible interpretation in a non-time-travel context, of
course, but for all but the most precise engelangs, context is always
going to be a major factor in interpreting utterances. Or events in
an alternate timeline could be described with something like
"Jefferson neniam aĉetintus Lousiana, do ĝi fariĝintus aparta lando en
1848." (Jefferson never would-have-bought Louisina, so it
would-have-became an independent country in 1848.)
In fact, I suspect if time travel were to be discovered, Esperanto
speakers would collectively work out some system of that sort for
using existing grammar to describe it, rather than creating new
grammar out of whole cloth.
And as a couple of other posters in the thread have remarked, a
language that doesn't mark tense obligatorily is probably better
equipped to handle time travel than one that does.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (22)
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4c. Timeless tenses (was: Are there any conventions for issuing a propos
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 11:34 am ((PST))
On 08/03/2013 16:37, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> Delete "often has more." "Aorist" essentially =
>> _perfective_ (*not* perfect, which is a different
>> thing).
>
> The aorist, yes. But I was just rereading Ringe on the
> PIE verbal system, and (if I haven't confused my sources)
> he repeated a claim that the Ancient Greek injunctive,
> together with the Sanskrit injunctive, could have a more
> tenseless sense than the (augment-bearing) aorist. Is
> this so for Greek?
No.
In fact I hadn't come across 'injunctive' in connexion with
ancient Greek before, and my knowledge of Sanskrit is not
exactly great.
If the Wikipedia article is remotely correct then the answer
is still "no":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injunctive_mood
The unaugmented imperfect (i.e. past imperfective) and past
aorist indicative forms found in Homer and Epic are just
that: they are _past indicative_ tenses with no augment.
They may, as the article says, be _formally_ like Sanskrit
injunctives, but they are not functionally differentiated
from ordinary indicative forms in Greek.
We were taught at school - and I think correctly - that in
the earliest Greek the augment was optional.
The writer of the Wikipedia article thinks "The modal
semantics of the augmentless forms may then be a later
development within Indo-Iranian or Indo-Aryan." I assume
Ringe argues that modal semantics of the augmentless forms
hark back to PIE and still existed in pre-Homeric Greek,
before these forms became considered simply as poetic
variants of the augmented form.
The so-called "tenses" of the subjunctive, optative &
imperative are, of course, timeless, i.e. not tenses in the
linguistic sense; but there were no timeless indicative tenses.
At that, I think, has now used up my daily Conlang allowance
;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (22)
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4d. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 11:56 am ((PST))
Den fredagen den 8:e mars 2013 skrev Alex Fink<[email protected]>:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown
> <[email protected]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
> >>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
> >>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
> >>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
> >>> be part of a good language.
>
> Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system
> being non-obligatory is the only way to go!
>
> Non-obligatory morphology
The concept of non-obligatory morphology crops up here from time to time,
but I wonder if it really occurs in natlangs with bound morphemes.
Non-bound morphemes certainly can and often are truly optional but I can't
recall ever seing optional bound morphemes in a natlang. Apparent cases
would seem to always actually be clitics or actually belong in word
formation rather than inflection.
Take for example the enclitic definite article in Old Scandinavian. It's
descendant in the modern languages is a bunch of bound morphemes and they
are obligatory: when you speak of something definite it has to be there.
Not a trace of optionalness. In Old Norse and Old Swedish the definite
enclitic could (still) be omitted, at least in poetry, but it clearly was a
clitic:
- Both the noun and the article were fully inflected for number and case.
- The article could be moved in front of the noun with an adjective
between them, somtimes appearing both preposed and enclitic at the same
time.
Any counterexamples?
/bpj
> >> Well, in finite verbs the aorist certainly has a
> >> definite tense, namely the past. But in imperatives,
> >> infinitives and subjunctive/optative forms, as well as
> >> participles, it often has more a sense of aspect.
> >
> >Delete "often has more." "Aorist" essentially =
> >_perfective_ (*not* perfect, which is a different thing).
>
> The aorist, yes. But I was just rereading Ringe on the PIE verbal system,
> and (if I haven't confused my sources) he repeated a claim that the Ancient
> Greek injunctive, together with the Sanskrit injunctive, could have a more
> tenseless sense than the (augment-bearing) aorist. Is this so for Greek?
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:16:10 -0500, MorphemeAddict
> <[email protected]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >I once proposed a new tense for Esperanto, using an ending "-es", to
> >represent events outside the event cone of relativity.
> >http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/4thtense
> >It didn't go over well.
>
> I haven't read the discussion you link, but from a physicist's point of
> view, I quite like that, it's a very fitting extension. Thing is, it
> doesn't seem very useful at human scales, where a second of space is
> immense and a second of time is minuscule. I suspect that if this system
> occurred in the wild it would be indistinguishable in practice from, and so
> would be analyzed by human users as,
> -is: past
> -es: present, elsewhere
> -as: present, here
> -os: future
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown
> <[email protected]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >On 07/03/2013 22:42, Matthew George wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >> Even in the simplest scenarios involving time travel,
> >> you can no longer speak of the past or future as
> >> something that will be the same for everyone and
> >> everything. Instead of an absolute perspective, it's
> >> relative. So grammar that permits only that absolute
> >> view excludes most possibilities. And alternate time
> >> lines? Forget it.
> >
> >Adding extra "tenses" IMO is going to make the situation
> >even more complicated. It would seem to me better to follow
> >Chinese and scrap tenses, and verbs only (optionally) to
> >show aspectual difference.
>
> Hear, hear. JBR also says it well:
>
> | European languages such as English, or indeed Esperanto, treat tense --
> | which is really a context-dependent pointer like this, on your left, here
> | etc. -- as if it was an essential, objective feature of the event, just
> | as plurality is an attribute of objects. And tense marking on verbs is
> | obligatory, no matter how redundant or meaningless this is – whether the
> | situation described is tenseless (time is a dimension, seven is prime),
> | tensed (I was born in 1967, Hitler shot himself) or indeed metatensed (I
> | will kill Hitler, this Time Line has become unstable)! The best solution
> | isn't the Hitchhiker's Guide one of inventing special tenses for time
> |travellers; it's the normal non-European approach of ignoring tense unless
> | it's worth explicitly mentioning.
> [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#appx]
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (22)
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4e. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 12:08 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:56 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> Den fredagen den 8:e mars 2013 skrev Alex Fink<[email protected]>:
>
> > On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[email protected]
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> > >[snip]
> > >>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
> > >>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
> > >>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
> > >>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
> > >>> be part of a good language.
> >
> > Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system
> > being non-obligatory is the only way to go!
> >
> > Non-obligatory morphology
>
> The concept of non-obligatory morphology crops up here from time to time,
> but I wonder if it really occurs in natlangs with bound morphemes.
> Non-bound morphemes certainly can and often are truly optional but I can't
> recall ever seing optional bound morphemes in a natlang. Apparent cases
> would seem to always actually be clitics or actually belong in word
> formation rather than inflection.
>
> Take for example the enclitic definite article in Old Scandinavian. It's
> descendant in the modern languages is a bunch of bound morphemes and they
> are obligatory: when you speak of something definite it has to be there.
> Not a trace of optionalness. In Old Norse and Old Swedish the definite
> enclitic could (still) be omitted, at least in poetry, but it clearly was a
> clitic:
>
> - Both the noun and the article were fully inflected for number and case.
> - The article could be moved in front of the noun with an adjective
> between them, somtimes appearing both preposed and enclitic at the same
> time.
>
> Any counterexamples?
>
The Mandarin plural marker is probably a bound suffix (one of a very few
bound morphemes in Mandarin), but it is optional on human nouns. (It's
actually ungrammatical on non-human nouns, but obligatory with personal
pronouns).
Messages in this topic (22)
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4f. Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to co
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 12:17 pm ((PST))
On 8 Mar 2013, at 20:08, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:56 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Den fredagen den 8:e mars 2013 skrev Alex Fink<[email protected]>:
>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[email protected]
>> <javascript:;>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
>>>>>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
>>>>>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
>>>>>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
>>>>>> be part of a good language.
>>>
>>> Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system
>>> being non-obligatory is the only way to go!
>>>
>>> Non-obligatory morphology
>>
>> The concept of non-obligatory morphology crops up here from time to time,
>> but I wonder if it really occurs in natlangs with bound morphemes.
>> Non-bound morphemes certainly can and often are truly optional but I can't
>> recall ever seing optional bound morphemes in a natlang. Apparent cases
>> would seem to always actually be clitics or actually belong in word
>> formation rather than inflection.
>>
>> Take for example the enclitic definite article in Old Scandinavian. It's
>> descendant in the modern languages is a bunch of bound morphemes and they
>> are obligatory: when you speak of something definite it has to be there.
>> Not a trace of optionalness. In Old Norse and Old Swedish the definite
>> enclitic could (still) be omitted, at least in poetry, but it clearly was a
>> clitic:
>>
>> - Both the noun and the article were fully inflected for number and case.
>> - The article could be moved in front of the noun with an adjective
>> between them, somtimes appearing both preposed and enclitic at the same
>> time.
>>
>> Any counterexamples?
>
> The Mandarin plural marker is probably a bound suffix (one of a very few
> bound morphemes in Mandarin), but it is optional on human nouns. (It's
> actually ungrammatical on non-human nouns, but obligatory with personal
> pronouns).
Not exactly optional. If you mean generalisations such as "doctors are kind",
then I would point you to the several European languages which use the singular
definite in place of the English plural. The plural suffix is not optional.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
Messages in this topic (22)
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5a. Re: Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 9:26 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8 March 2013 09:54, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Google likely won't care, but people searching for words might run into
> > issues.
> >
>
> Why would *anyone* ever search for Moten words *via Google*? Searching for
> "Moten" or "Moten language", I'd understand, but anything else is just
> weird. Especially since Moten morphology means that the shape of a noun in
> the citation form may be very different from the shape of that word in the
> genitive case plural! So a plain Google search (even one that could handle
> the pipe correctly) would most likely not return the results you'd want.
>
> But really, why would one want to search specific Moten words via Google?
>
Someone knows the word, but not what language it comes from, either because
it was posted somewhere with insufficient information, or they are
remembering the word but not where they saw it last.
I'm not trying to get you to change anything. I'm just throwing out my
ideas as to why conlangers in general would want to be Google-friendly.
It's not so hard to do, anyway -- Google ignores diacritics, so that
misspellings of foreign words can still find what the user is after. But I
respect that you, specifically, have an established orthography that would
be difficult to change at this point.
Messages in this topic (17)
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6. THEORY: Asperger syndrome and hyperpolyglotism.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2013 12:18 pm ((PST))
I just saw this guy talking about relation between Asperger syndrome
and hyperpolyglotism (in Portuguese):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q78TIpSH6o
He says that learning languages is a great activity for the typical
"compulsion" of people with this type of autism. Do you anything else
about this?
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (1)
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