There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1b. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1d. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1e. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
From: Adam Walker
2a. Re: THEORY: VC consonant contrasts (was: Lost of final-syllable rhot
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
3a. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
From: James Kane
3b. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
From: James Kane
3c. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3d. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
From: Herman Miller
3e. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
From: Jyri Lehtinen
4a. Re: Timeless tenses (was: Are there any conventions for issuing a pr
From: Anthony Miles
5a. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
From: Anthony Miles
Messages
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1a. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:31 am ((PDT))
On 15 March 2013 16:22, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, Google .docx isn't screen reader accessible. Can you send me the
> dictionary off-list? I'll try to read it.
>
>
Hi Nicole,
It's actually not a Google Doc document, but a PDF file uploaded to Google
Drive. In principle you should be able to download the original PDF with
the link I gave you. If not please tell me so and I'll send you the PDF
off-list.
I don't know however how screen reader accessible the PDF itself is, given
that I use the pipe | as part of a few digraphs. This might break reading
many of the Moten words...
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:17 am ((PDT))
No, sorry, the entire site in unaccessible.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 6:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
On 15 March 2013 16:22, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, Google .docx isn't screen reader accessible. Can you send me the
> dictionary off-list? I'll try to read it.
>
>
Hi Nicole,
It's actually not a Google Doc document, but a PDF file uploaded to Google
Drive. In principle you should be able to download the original PDF with
the link I gave you. If not please tell me so and I'll send you the PDF
off-list.
I don't know however how screen reader accessible the PDF itself is, given
that I use the pipe | as part of a few digraphs. This might break reading
many of the Moten words...
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:36 am ((PDT))
On 15 March 2013 18:16, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> No, sorry, the entire site in unaccessible.
>
>
OK, that's bad. You'd think with their experience Google would know how to
make their products accessible...
In any case, I've sent you the file off-list.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:13 am ((PDT))
Yes, the only thing that is accessible on Google is the search engine, and web
mail, but I use Yahoo as my search engine, and an email client. I only use the
web mail feature if I need to try and find files I'm trying to back up. I
agree, that's bad. Google Chrome isn't accessible either.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 7:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
On 15 March 2013 18:16, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> No, sorry, the entire site in unaccessible.
>
>
OK, that's bad. You'd think with their experience Google would know how to
make their products accessible...
In any case, I've sent you the file off-list.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: More Online Moten Dictionary
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:29 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, the only thing that is accessible on Google is the search engine, and
> web mail, but I use Yahoo as my search engine, and an email client. I only
> use the web mail feature if I need to try and find files I'm trying to
> back up. I agree, that's bad. Google Chrome isn't accessible either.
>
>
Wow. Now that is just stupid on Google's part. Absolutely stupid.
Adam
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: THEORY: VC consonant contrasts (was: Lost of final-syllable rhot
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:18 am ((PDT))
On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:06:12 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:37:58 -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>>Your account (of Blevin's argument -- that would be Juliette Blevins, I
>>assume?)
>
>Juliette Blevins, yes. I read this in her _Evolutionary phonology_.
Thanks!
>>provides a nice interpretation of this difference: The
>>aspiration contrast (possibly with some concomitant voicedness
>>contrast) has more distinctive effects on the following vowel.
>>Therefore, varieties that have an aspiration contrast (like many German
>>varieties) have a tendency to retain initial or CV contrasts while
>>loosing medial or VC contrasts. Varieties with the opposite tendency,
>>e.g. Swiss German varieties, might have a contrast that has more
>>distinctive effects on the preceding vowel. The contrast of homorganic
>>consonants in Swiss German is not based on aspiration or voice, but on
>>quantity. So I wonder whether consonant quantity is indeed a contrast
>>that has more distinctive effects on a previous vowel than a following,
>>just like the Australian retroflexion and laminality contrasts that you
>>have mentioned. Would you know anything about that?
>
>I don't know anything about it for sure, but I do like the sound of it. It
>does seem plausible that consonant quantity would have more distinctive
>effects on a preceding vowel than a following: not colouring effects,
>though, but quantitative effects, just like elsewhere in Germanic we see
>the developments VC: > V_XC, VC_X > V:C.
I have not seen this particular description before. However, the effects of
consonant quantity on preceding vowel quantity is at best very limited in
Swiss German. While there is often monosyllabic lengthening (e.g. the
diachronic development from /grab/ to /gra:b/ 'grave'), there is hardly any
open syllable lengthening (e.g. no lengthening in /grab@/ 'ditch', unlike
Standard German /gra:bn/). So the distribution of vowel length is
independent from the distribution of consonant length, much like in Finnish.
>>Finnish seems to be (according to Wikipedia etc.) another language
>>where the contrast of homorganic consonants is not based on aspiration
>>or voice, but on quantity. And similar to Swiss German, the contrast
>>does not occur in initial position, but only in medial position. This
>>would again be explained by the hypothesis that consonant quantity has
>>more distinctive effects on a previous vowel than a following.
>
>It could. But I betcha the explanation here (& perhaps in part above) is
>simpler: it's, as far as I know, inaudible when I start a word-initial stop;
>it's only audible when I release it.
Or when preceded by any sonorant. So in absolute onset, the distinction
will be inaudible. The restriction that a consonant length distinction will only
be audible between two sonorants applies to Finnish as well as to Swiss
German.
--
greetings
mach
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:45 pm ((PDT))
Yes I am sighted. I feel that ms word, like excel is too haphazard and
unorganised.
James
On 16/03/2013, at 4:16 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm using msword. The guide I'm going through can be found at
> www.fridaynightlinguisti cs.org/languagecreation
>
> I had some books I bought, but my old laptop crashed, and I may not be able
> to get them baxck. I'll know once I get a terrabite and the old data can be
> transferred. At least I'll have a better understanding of the process. I
> have some linguistics books I'm using, in audio format. Are you sighted?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of James Kane
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:16 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
>
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> I have decided to download both Toolbox and FLEx as while FLEx sounds
> like the better program, I am very impressed with the look of the
> Moten dictionary. I will try out both and see which one I prefer.
>
>
> James
>
> On 3/15/13, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 15 March 2013 07:10, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> I am newish to conlanging and so far my attempts are all recorded in
>>> either (very) unorganised paper form or on Microsoft Excel which isn't
>>> the best way to store a lexicon. Most of the grammars of the languages
>>> exist mostly in my head.
>>>
>>> I was wondering what people's methods were for documenting their
>>> conlangs; what specific programs or software do you find very useful?
>>> How do you structure dictionary entries or grammar points? Is there a
>>> link to a resource that could help in this aspect?
>> For dictionary work, I use Toolbox
>> (http://www-01.sil.org/computing/toolbox/),
>> which is basically FLEx's less good-looking father. I use it instead of
>> FLEx because it is good enough for my needs, and the Linux version (which
>> is actually a Windows version that runs very well under Wine) works also
>> perfectly as a portable version on Windows, which is necessary for me as
> my
>> laptop is from work and thus locked down.
>> The one disadvantage of Toolbox compared to FLEx is that its database
>> format allows for a lot of freedom for the user, and you need a good
>> discipline to keep your entries consistent. FLEx does much more
> consistency
>> checking itself. Also, its import and export facilities pale compared to
>> FLEx. Its main advantage is that it's probably simpler to use. It doesn't
>> do that much, but it does it well.
>>
>> I don't have any specific tool for my grammar. Basically, I just publish
>> grammar points on my blog (see the link in my signature). They are based
> on
>> hand-written notes and what's in my head :) .
>> --
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>>
>> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
>
> --
> (This is my signature.)
Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:48 pm ((PDT))
Thank you for this link. I was thinking of creating a logographic or
semi-pictographic conscript but I will definitely have a look at this.
It may certainly be useful for future endeavours.
James
On 3/16/13, Allison Swenson <[email protected]> wrote:
> For my conscript, I used FontStruct (http://fontstruct.com) to create the
> script, with each key matching a character in the script, so when I want to
> type in my conscript, I just switch to that font. It works because it's a
> relatively small alphabet (not a syllabary or logography) and most of the
> characters match their English equivalents (although vowels muddled the
> issue somewhat--for example, y ended up standing in for a vowel while the
> consonant y was moved to j).
>
> If you had an alphabet significantly larger than the English one or a
> syllabary/logography, unfortunately I can't help you there!
>
> --Allison
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm using msword. The guide I'm going through can be found at
>> www.fridaynightlinguisti cs.org/languagecreation
>>
>> I had some books I bought, but my old laptop crashed, and I may not be
>> able
>> to get them baxck. I'll know once I get a terrabite and the old data can
>> be
>> transferred. At least I'll have a better understanding of the process. I
>> have some linguistics books I'm using, in audio format. Are you sighted?
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of James Kane
>> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 3:16 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
>>
>> Thanks for the replies.
>>
>> I have decided to download both Toolbox and FLEx as while FLEx sounds
>> like the better program, I am very impressed with the look of the
>> Moten dictionary. I will try out both and see which one I prefer.
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>> On 3/15/13, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On 15 March 2013 07:10, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi all
>> >>
>> >> I am newish to conlanging and so far my attempts are all recorded in
>> >> either (very) unorganised paper form or on Microsoft Excel which isn't
>> >> the best way to store a lexicon. Most of the grammars of the languages
>> >> exist mostly in my head.
>> >>
>> >> I was wondering what people's methods were for documenting their
>> >> conlangs; what specific programs or software do you find very useful?
>> >> How do you structure dictionary entries or grammar points? Is there a
>> >> link to a resource that could help in this aspect?
>> >>
>> >>
>> > For dictionary work, I use Toolbox
>> > (http://www-01.sil.org/computing/toolbox/),
>> > which is basically FLEx's less good-looking father. I use it instead of
>> > FLEx because it is good enough for my needs, and the Linux version
>> > (which
>> > is actually a Windows version that runs very well under Wine) works
>> > also
>> > perfectly as a portable version on Windows, which is necessary for me
>> > as
>> my
>> > laptop is from work and thus locked down.
>> > The one disadvantage of Toolbox compared to FLEx is that its database
>> > format allows for a lot of freedom for the user, and you need a good
>> > discipline to keep your entries consistent. FLEx does much more
>> consistency
>> > checking itself. Also, its import and export facilities pale compared
>> > to
>> > FLEx. Its main advantage is that it's probably simpler to use. It
>> > doesn't
>> > do that much, but it does it well.
>> >
>> > I don't have any specific tool for my grammar. Basically, I just
>> > publish
>> > grammar points on my blog (see the link in my signature). They are
>> > based
>> on
>> > hand-written notes and what's in my head :) .
>> > --
>> > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>> >
>> > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>> > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> (This is my signature.)
>>
>
--
(This is my signature.)
Messages in this topic (12)
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3c. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:11 pm ((PDT))
On 15 March 2013 11:15, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> I have decided to download both Toolbox and FLEx as while FLEx sounds
> like the better program, I am very impressed with the look of the
> Moten dictionary. I will try out both and see which one I prefer.
>
>
Thanks for the compliment :) . I must say I have no idea how the export or
dictionary-making options of FLEx are like. I might install it on my Linux
computer just to check. It seems to be able to import Toolbox MDF datafiles
without a problem, which means I should be fine with my Moten dictionary,
which uses that format.
Getting the dictionary to look like it does was hard work! :/ I had to make
a lot of modifications of the document template used by Toolbox, and had to
delve into the arcane and frustrating depths of Word master documents. I'd
rather have an export system that doesn't want me to use Word and allows me
to automate more work. But that's a long term goal...
On 15 March 2013 11:45, Jyri Lehtinen <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm also just reactivated in conlanging myself so much of my documentation
> is handwritten on loose leaf and notebooks. I've also started to clean up
> the documentation and write it on my computer. Those documents I've
> compiled using xelatex. LaTeX often looks a bit daunting for new users but
> it creates beautiful output once you get used to it. Then again, it's just
> a way to format your output and you can get the same structuring of your
> contents using any of your favourite word processors. For me LaTeX is a
> natural choice since I already use it extensively in my work.
>
>
Yeah, my long term goal is to have my dictionary made in XeLaTeX. But
that'll be hard work as I miss the export tools needed for Toolbox.
> I don't have so much lexicon at the moment that I would need a special tool
> for it. I might try the Linux versions of the SIL software or just take the
> chance to learn to do some database work myself. One desired goal would be
> to have the ability to create reverse word lists (natlang > conlang) from a
> database that has word items in the conlang and more thorough descriptions
> of them in the natlang (several possible translations, example phrases
> etc.). And of course, being able to export into LaTeX format to get good
> publishable output would be nice.
>
>
Toolbox (and I hope FLEx, which is after all a descendant of Toolbox) does
reverse word list export, as you can see in my dictionary (which combines a
Moten-English dictionary and an English-Moten reverse word list).
Unfortunately, it lacks the ability to export to a format usable by LaTeX.
That's my big stumbling block at the moment. That's why I'm curious about
FLEx's export capabilities...
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (12)
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3d. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:19 pm ((PDT))
On 3/15/2013 2:10 AM, James Kane wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I am newish to conlanging and so far my attempts are all recorded in
> either (very) unorganised paper form or on Microsoft Excel which isn't
> the best way to store a lexicon. Most of the grammars of the languages
> exist mostly in my head.
>
> I was wondering what people's methods were for documenting their
> conlangs; what specific programs or software do you find very useful?
> How do you structure dictionary entries or grammar points? Is there a
> link to a resource that could help in this aspect?
I just use Word documents for my lexicons. I use bold for the English
glosses for easy searching. I have vocabulary organized into categories
(colors, parts of the body, kinds of musical instruments, etc.)
> For people with conscripts, how do you store those on the computer? I
> have a fair computer and internet literacy.
I use a really old copy of Macromedia Fontographer from 1996 to create
TrueType fonts. These days there are probably better options, but it's
what I'm familiar with.
Messages in this topic (12)
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3e. Re: Methods or software for creating grammars and dictionaries
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:26 am ((PDT))
>
> Toolbox (and I hope FLEx, which is after all a descendant of Toolbox) does
> reverse word list export, as you can see in my dictionary (which combines a
> Moten-English dictionary and an English-Moten reverse word list).
> Unfortunately, it lacks the ability to export to a format usable by LaTeX.
> That's my big stumbling block at the moment. That's why I'm curious about
> FLEx's export capabilities...
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
I took a look at your dictionary and its format indeed looks like
something very usable and something I'd aim at. I was wondering how
readable the database format of the SIL software is. If it's easily done,
there's always the possibility of writing your own script that reads the
database in and parses dictionary items in LaTeX format into a tex file. It
might require a bit of research but apart from that should be pretty
straight forward.
-Jyri
Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: Timeless tenses (was: Are there any conventions for issuing a pr
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:14 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 1:34 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
IIRC correctly, only polarity is more basic than aspect.The verbs in my conlang
Siye runs on a perfective/imperfective aspectual duality. When I compose in
Siye, I find that I seldom need an indicator of time once the situation is
clearly described. OTOH many suffixes are associated with one aspect. E.g. the
Simayamka (Siye-speakers) associate -te- (to want) with the imperfective, -ka-
(to intend) with the perfective.
>
>
> The so-called "tenses" of the subjunctive, optative &
> imperative are, of course, timeless, i.e. not tenses in the
> linguistic sense; but there were no timeless indicative tenses.
>
>
I'm working through Greek: An Intensive Course to try to get some more of
this language's endless grammar in my head, and every so often it says
things like "the tense in the infinitive is aspectual." It hurts my brain,
because that's not what *tense* means.
But I get their meaning. It's just a clunky way of talking about it.
It reminds me a bit of classical Hebrew, in which tense isn't marked but
aspect is. I suppose aspect is more fundamental than tense.
In fact, I can't think of a language that marks tense that doesn't *also*
mark aspect. I can think of a few that mark aspect but not tense (Chinese,
for example).
Messages in this topic (26)
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5a. Re: How to choose the name of a conlang?
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:33 pm ((PDT))
> I can't decide a name of the language I have been sketching for a long
> time. Those are some patterns of language name I have recognized:
>
> A. "language-spoken-by-people-X": English, Français, Português,
> tlhIngan Hol (?), etc.
I'm all over the map on this. Siye and Ulok, both Martian tongues, mean
"speech/to speak". The other Martian language, Utu Nes, the extinct language of
the Ulok capital of the Kingdom of Nesa has name that relates to dreaming
(maybe; the records are sparse). Koha, believe it or not, is ultimately from
"(die) Deutsche (Sprache)", but in Koha is just the Koha name for Koha (German
is "ki Koha ho Elopa" - "the Koha of Europe"). Na'gifi Fasu'xa means "Common
Tongue". Cheyoon (also known as Mermish) might mean something, but I don't know
what. Fortunatian and its various translations is the name of the place where
Fortunatian is spoken. Wy 'Luthwy (a crude Hellenic analog to Brithenig) means
"The Speech". Kingspeech is an exonym applied to the speech of the Kingsmen by
the Transpositive Men. I don't recall what the the Ri' of naReNga Ri' is, and
my dictionary is at home, but naReNga means tongue. Gweiric is an ethnonym as
well as a language name, and its older name, Lahabic, just means "of the
island". Ngiaera (not yet posted) is a name I picked to illustrate some of the
salient features of Ngiaera. And of course, many are just "numbered conlangs".
> B. "good language": Toki Pona, Nhengatu, etc.
> C. "universal/international/World language": Mundolinco,
> Universalglot, Interlingua, etc.
> D. some nice sounding word: Esperanto, any other?
Sibulu probably falls into this one.
> E. a name related to the features of the language: Lojban, Loglan...
> F. "language-of-person-X": Xorban, any other?
> G. "this-language-I'm-speaking-right-now": this could be done with a
> specific pronoun.
Messages in this topic (15)
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